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I don't see the negotiations ending up in court, any court.
AS's timetable is extremely optimistic. Reality probably closer to 2018 than 2016. Ditto negotiations with the EU. As we've all said before if there is a Yes vote it's quite easy to see a UK backlash in a "sod off then" sort of way. If Scotland really does try or even persist with threats to walk away from their share of the public debt that backlash could get very ugly. Like @richc says I think the UK election will be fought with manifestos talking tough about any Scottish independence negotiations (assuming its a Yes vote)
Polls will be interesting over next week.
richc - Member
...There has already been talk of rUK along with Spain and Belgium blocking iS membership of the EU with their veto's.
Is that before or after rUK leaves the EU?
There has already been talk of rUK along with Spain and Belgium blocking iS membership of the EU with their veto's.
Not from any credible sources.
As I said this will be a bitter divorce; so if a rUK MP can do something to hurt iS it will make them popular. You are aware of how divorces work when one side wants to make the other side's life difficult?
True, but if that desire for some weird form of retribution comes at the cost of economic performance then it's not going to fly.
I'd like to think that all the chat about people in England wanting Scotland punished is just paper talk, if not then they're no better than the minority of Scots who'll vote yes to "get one over on the English"
I'd assume as well that given Scots will still be allowed to vote in the next general election the Labour party in particular won't be able to have a manifesto which describes punishing Scotland.
@richc Spain will certainly make Scotland's life difficult wrt joining the EU, they don't want to give the Basques or Catalans the faintest whiff of independence. That will of course give AS the excuse he needs for some more 5 star hotel stays, this time in Spain.
@whatnobeer the Spanish head of the EU was pretty negative about Scotland joining and certainly made it clear it would not be automatic. I think the economic impact on the UK of being firm in it's negotiations with Scotland is pretty limited, for the average Brit in the street they won't care too greatly IMO.
If I were to come on here as a Yes voter and announce that after the referendum we would be making things difficult for No voters to punish and hurt them to make us more popular, I wonder how that would go down? Some sad bitter folk on here who would foam at the mouth at such a stance yet be only too happy to see rUK do the same to an iS. Sad little people.
@whatnobeer the Spanish head of the EU was pretty negative about Scotland joining and certainly made it clear it would not be automatic.
He was, but his opinions were discredited as not being official advice. He also didn't mention a veto. IIRC there were reports of the Spanish PM (maybe someone else) saying he had no problem with an indy Scotland.
If I were to come on here as a Yes voter and announce that after the referendum we would be making things difficult for No voters to punish and hurt them to make us more popular, I wonder how that would go down? Some sad bitter folk on here who would foam at the mouth at such a stance yet be only too happy to see rUK do the same to an iS. Sad little people.
I am not saying its the right or proper thing to do. I'm just stating what appears to be public opinion. "Yes" voters can ignore this, however they shouldn't be surprised if things don't go iS's way later down the road even if you have a mandate.
As I said you need to think of this a divorce, where one party is not happy about it and whilst they can't stop the divorce they don't have to shut up and put up and when it comes to the terms of the divorce the rUK is going to be *very* hostile towards iS.
Anyone think Salmonds MANDATE adds up to much? Just curious like.
So it's shaping up to iScotland using the pound, but without currency union, yes? Is this a good thing?
I can't see any rUK politician advocating 'punishments' on iScotland, that would just be silly - they wouldn't need to do that.
All any prospective candidate needs to say is "I will not vote for a Currency Union with an Independent Scotland" and their electorate will be happy enough.
It bears repeating, defending OUR interests is NOT punishing an Independent Scotland, it is simply defending our own interests, something the advocates of Independence seem to be very strong upon.
To the average rUK voter the CU issue is No1, the rest is unimportant by comparison. I don't think the Yes supporters in Scotland can grasp how strongly we feel about that particular issue.
That's why its a non-starter, we (and our elected representatives) simply will not vote for it.
The silly thing is, if Mr Salmond had said something along the lines of "in our move towards a stable economic position, an Independent Scotland would seek a short term financial union with the UK" then many may have felt more warmly towards the idea, but his overbearing arrogance* in insisting that CU will happen and that everyone else is telling lies has simply hardened our desire not to allow it.
*an alleged English trait according to some.
That's not what the Future of England survey found:
you seem to have a low opinion of ruk citizens. Personally I don't share that view.richc - Member
As I said this will be a bitter divorce; so if a rUK MP can do something to hurt iS it will make them popular
I'm curious why Salmond is so wedded to a CU?
A hard line - if you think saying no to CU is such then maybe.
Most voters don't even know much about what Scotland will or won't get in the event of Independence, although expecting Scotland to bear the same amount of cuts as England/Wales/N.Ireland is hardly 'punishment' is it?
Anyone think Salmonds MANDATE adds up to much? Just curious like.
What do you think Salmond was getting at using the mandate line?
I think some people missed the point. He wasn't saying that having a mandate from the Scottish people meant rUK had to agree to a CU. He was using it to bait Darling and others like him. After a Yes vote, as elected representatives, Darling and co would have an obligation to go into negotiations with rUK reflecting the will of the Scottish people. He was trying to get Darling to commit to whether or not he would do this.
you seem to have a low opinion of ruk citizens. Personally I don't share that view.
And I hope you're right, althought I suspect you're not; especially after the European elections where UKIP was chosen by the majority of rUK citzens to represent their views in Europe.
Which gives you a flavour of rUK citizens who can be arsed to vote, as tbh the non-voting masses don't really count as they are appear to be happy to go with whatever the majority decides.
I'm curious why Salmond is so wedded to a CU?
@futon - it's like the ultimate free lunch. Scotland get to use an establish currency with full backing of the Bank of England without having to set up their own central bank. Also, and absolutely central, this is AS's best plan to try and avoid having to take the euro
this is AS's best plan to try and avoid having to take the euro
I thought it was non-negotiable that new countries joining the EU had to take the Euro?
Going back to a Scottish Currency, i don't claim to be an economist but Mr Salmond has at one & the same time claimed Scotland will be the richest Nation ever to declare Independence and yet infer that Scotland needs a Currency Union so badly he will ignore any other option.
So which is it?
this is AS's best plan to try and avoid having to take the euro
I thought it was non-negotiable that new countries joining the EU had to take the Euro?
Quite pickle isn't it? How did we get here, oh hang on a minute........... Salmond has really thought this through, hasn't he?
Pretty sure Salmond said he was going to Westminster with a MANDATE for negotiations. I could also see that he was trying to trap AD into supporting him. But he made a lot of that mandate, my question is, does it add up to much? Also it seems to me that AS was saying that they were going to use the pound, CU or no CU. Both those points got really big cheers from the audience too......
I have always considered myself British first and feel very sad that what I have always thought to be my country, the United Kingdom, could end in a few weeks time because a small minority of the population of the United Kingdom feel they will be better off by being independent. I get no vote on the future of my country, the United Kingdom, and just have to stand on the sidelines and hope that a majority of those that do have a vote will see sense and vote no. If Scotland does vote to go independent I will feel very bitter towards the politicians who have allowed this to happen.
If Scotland does vote to go independent I will feel very bitter towards the politicians who have allowed this to happen.
The ones in Westminster, the ones in Holyrood or both?
kjcc25 - Member
...because a small minority of the population of the United Kingdom feel they will be better off by being independent...
Having difficulty recognising that Scotland is a country, are we?
kjcc25 - Member
...If Scotland does vote to go independent I will feel very bitter towards the politicians who have allowed this to happen.
Whereas up here we will be very grateful.
The ones in Westminster.
The legal right of people to decide their own destiny is a core principle of international law and is enshrined in the UN Charter.
Westminster politicians have a legal obligation to recognise that right.
So try not to feel too bitter towards Westminster politicians if the vote doesn't go the way you would prefer.
It's not their fault that you were born 100 years too late.
Whereas up here we will be very grateful.
Who are we? Plenty of us will not be very grateful. Your opinion does not speak for all Scots.
athgray - Member
Who are we? Plenty of us will not be very grateful. Your opinion does not speak for all Scots.
The majority...
So after Better Together's last TV advert featured a BNP-supporting woman who wants to hang Catholics - it's a honest mistake, could happen to anyone - they've decided to go all out for the women's vote with this:
Good grief.
I thought it was non-negotiable that new countries joining the EU had to take the Euro?
This was discussed at great length on multiple pages earlier in this thread.
e.g. here:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/osbourne-says-no-to-currency-union/page/8#post-5770789
Allegedly Scotland could agree to join the Euro but not have an actual timescale and just stay out of it forever.
Sweden is in the same position.
Weird focus in that video. Sorry, I spend my life worrying about image quality so that's all I really care about.
The tone of this debate has taken a turn for the worse with hopes for a the separation to be painful and intolerable for a newly independent Scotland. Here's the thing - it's that attitude that will make more and more and more people vote yes and will only serve to make the majority in favour of yes even bigger.
So after Better Together's last TV advert featured a BNP-supporting woman who wants to hang Catholics - it's a honest mistake, could happen to anyone - they've decided to go all out for the women's vote with this:
Linky for proof (or at least where youve got it from)
Edit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28837313
Genuine interest.
Shit video
Sweden is in the same position.
Not quite
Sweden negotiated entry on the basis of having to join the Euro, then once 'in' the club decided (after a non binding referendum) to delay indefinitely.
Scotland's plan is to negotiate entry after having [b]already[/b] showed its cards that it has no intent to complete the Euro membership process. Its already been pointed out here that this constitutes a pretty poor negotiating position.
wanmankylung - MemberThe tone of this debate has taken a turn for the worse with hopes for a the separation to be painful and intolerable for a newly independent Scotland. Here's the thing - it's that attitude that will make more and more and more people vote yes and will only serve to make the majority in favour of yes even bigger.
wanmankylung - MemberYou make it sound like having massive oil reserves is a bad thing. I bet that rUK would tear Scotland's hand off if we said hat we didn't want the oil because it was too volatile... But that's not going to happen because that would be stupid.
May I suggest that rUK will retain their need for massive borrowing and that the interest rates they will be charged will increase and that is your main gripe about Scotland leaving the UK. [b]I have no problem with the rUK's economy suffering as a result of Scotland becoming independent.[/b] Scotland has been subsidising the rUK for a lot of years.
Weird focus in that video. Sorry, I spend my life worrying about image quality so that's all I really care about.
Yes, are they trying for arty tilt shift and failing, do you think?
Linky for proof (or at least where youve got it from)
Cheers 😉
Cheers
Yeh, that video is pretty err.... unfortunate.
That's going in the league of 'special **** ups' filing location.
Piemonster - I see no issue with what I said. rUK would apparently have incredible strength compared to a newly iScotland - allegedly. From what we're being told by the No side it would appear that rUK in a great place with absolutely no risks - Utopia even.
The question I liked most from the debate last night was: If we would be better together, why are we not better together now?
Scotland is already better together. Stop running Scotland down and don't reply telling me how bad things will be if there is a no vote because that is negative tactics and the yes campaign will have to be renamed project fear.
Right pie monster let's cut the spin out and deal clearly with the real facts of one of the core issues raised in the last few pages of this thread.
What is your current position?
A Flounced
B Unflounced
C Temporarily Unflounced
D Reflounced
E Temporarily Re-Unflounced
🙂
I've consulted the PFC (Piemonster Flouncing Commission) and they have concluded that the best option is a Flouncey Union. This is the best Flounce for all parties concerned. Even if its not.
This Flouncey Union is my preffered flounce. Although if necessary I shall use your flounce whether you like if or not.
Scotland is already better together. Stop running Scotland down and don't reply telling me how bad things will be if there is a no vote because that is negative tactics and the yes campaign will have to be renamed project fear.
you mean "project feart" 😉
Two more reason to vote Yes. These two could be the future PM and Deputy PM in Westminster.
Oh ****ing jesus wept
Pm may I make you aware that some members want to flounce from the flouncey union. They may also flounce from the EFU (European Flouncey Union). It is apparently very difficult to unflounce from the EFU. Members of the EFU who wish to flounce are encouraged to disable the Flounce option (FOff) but if they persist are said to have FdOFF.Members/ aspiring members who have attained FdOFFstatus have been known to wait for years before being able to achieve unflounced status known as UFOFF.
😀