So that must be a dozen motorbike deaths listed here?

I knew four people who have died on them all left behind devastated families. Yes they are quick but they are so flipping dangerous – even the best rider in the World can't stop someone pulling out in front of them, not seeing them overtake and pulling out, etc.

Also seen two horrible incidents were death resulted – I can imagine the OP will be mentally scarred for life? I know I still "see" the mangled bodies in my mind sometimes.

And road hazards – I'm bad enough at 30-40 on my road bike looking for potholes, wet drain covers, farm animal cr4p, etc – god knows that they hazard perception is like at silly superbike speeds.

I like quick cars but quick bikes just terrify me. Nice to look at but why do riders have to match their bikes?! Imagine us matching our cars? I'd have to wear a shiny black outfit with terra leather "detailing" (maybe elbow patches?)!

hora
In a car, I've always had a 'sixth sense'. Sounds wierd but you second-guess other drivers, know what to expect from the unexpected and a slide is never a drama, just interesting.

As I actually know you in the real world and been a passenger in your car… I've never been aware of this "sixth sense" of yours. You must keep it well hidden 😉

Someone keeps putting oil on my tyres 😉

I used to ride motorbikes both on and off road.
I've had one accident that was my fault and several that were other peoples.

IMO the roads are far more crowded than they used to be, and with fewer traffic police available the standards of driving and riding has fallen massively.

Add into this the democratisation of speed (very fast cars and bikes are cheap – £2000 for an old Fireblade or a Subaru) and we have a recipe for disaster.

Pointless arguing about who is to blame – the evidence is mixed and contradictory regarding motorcycle accidents – no one, not even separate parts of the (very anti-motorcycling)previous government could agree. I've read so much about this over the last few years and the evidence appears contradictory.
Born again bikers do seem to kill themselves with depressing regularity in single vehicle accidents.
Yet in accidents involving a car and a motorcycle, speed is not usually a factor. clicky.
Honestly, there is reams of this stuff, all with an agenda behind it.

I'd be happy to see more relevant testing for both cars and bikes, combined with a horsepower limit introduced for five years after passing a driving test for both drivers and motorcyclists.
Lets say 100hp for cars and 40hp for bikes – safe, but not excessive.

More controversially, how about forcing all drivers to cover a minimum of 10,000 road miles on a motorcycle before being allowed anywhere near a car and if possible (taking disability etc into account)
10,000 miles on a bicycle before being allowed near a motorcycle?

Fairplay TJ……

Most of my mates I grew up with rode motorbikes – their families were big into them.
From KR1S's, TZR125's KMX 125's, Fazers, Bandits, Fireblades, KTM Dukes they've pretty much had them all. And I've been on the back of most of them.
In general they have not had any bad accidents (apart from below) & as far as I can tell they ride pretty sensibly.
A couple of years ago though a mate of mine had a fairly bad accident through no fault of his own that I could see & is now left with a shoulder that works, but not very well.
That accident made me re-consider the fact that it could happen to anyone, regardless of how safe you ride and I think that's when I decided I'd never get a motorbike.

Where I live, it's quite easy to access the main road that goes along the northern bit of East Anglia out towards Norfolk and that road is a mecca for bikers on a sunny day. They all head for Hunstanton, Wells-next-the-sea etc. and whenever we go for a drive that way I would estimate it's a 50/50 mix of sensible bikers & loons who are gonna end up spread all over the road.

I followed a biker for about 3 miles yesterday evening and he nearly wrote himself off twice.

First time he slowed way down for a right hander, leant it in, then mid-corner he started looking down at this foot (gears?), turned too far and nearly swerved into oncoming traffic.

Second time he tried to give it more welly though an open left hander with a dip on the apex, as he hit the upslope he drifted way left and nearly hit a garden wall.

I was watching all this from a safe distance and probably driving a lot slower than usual on that stretch of road, it is frightening how easy it is for somebody to get out of their depth on a motorbike.

He was probably trying to see how close he could get his lean in/peg to the floor? (watched a few GP's).

More controversially, how about forcing all drivers to cover a minimum of 10,000 road miles on a motorcycle before being allowed anywhere near a car and if possible (taking disability etc into account)
10,000 miles on a bicycle before being allowed near a motorcycle?

It may be controversial, but it would almost certainly improve the roads.

I would say that your typical all-weathers motorcyclist or urban cyclist is a more observant/hazard aware car driver than the vast majority.

There is a lot of talk here that wouldn't be out of place on the comments of a Daily Mail article about cycling.

From the Office of National Statistics:

Motorcyclist road casualties, % from the whole of the UK in 2002: 6.5
Car Occupants road casualties, % from the whole of the UK in 2002: 69.7

We're missing the wood for the trees here. Cars kill, maim, and injure, motorbikes kill, maim and injure, and bitching about some Sunday motorcyclists isn't the best way to stop that. I'm far more concerned about the average joe bloggs monday to friday slaughtering people with their 'right' to drive.

mansonsoul- agree but thats a different potential-thread?

On Friday I was preparing to turn right at a junction on my bicycle and an overweight woman munching a Mcdonalds burger came within two inches of my ass. She scowled and I noticed she was using the steering wheel as a sort of prop/dinner plate!

I'd agree about the stats and anecdotes. The appearance of a few people riding fast, noisy bikes causes a disproportionate response from Joe Public. A lot of it comes down to a lack of understanding.

First time he slowed way down for a right hander, leant it in, then mid-corner he started looking down at this foot (gears?), turned too far and nearly swerved into oncoming traffic.

On a modern bike, the gears are on the left, rear brake is on the right.

If you lean over a long way you can scrape the inside peg/outside of the boot on the ground, although it takes a bit of effort (apart from on my old monkey bike!).

It sounds as if the rider in question was just out of their depth.

You're right Hora, I would just like people to keep it in perspective.

Snake's pass in the Peaks yesterday was covered with bikers of clearly mixed abilities. The section coming down from the top of the pass heading towards lady bower had 2 static police camera vans as well as 2 traffic cars and 1 motorbike. And that is only what I spotted. The thing that got me was the constant flashing of lights warning of the police presence which is good as it did slow a fair few of the riders down. I think the under cover bikes are a great idea. Have fun on a bike but to do it on a public road when busy is just daft. I read about the biker on the Vincent as I was looking on the BBC news site to find out why the air ambulance landed next to the road leading down to the Ladybower visitor centre? I'd love a motorbike to get around on but the likely hood of crashing or being wiped out by someone else is to high. I'd much rather have a "quick" car than a super fast bike.

Manson – I see lots of "good" motorbiking too – great anticipation, lots of courtesy, etc and I always allow space for bikes to pass when possible but I do think many riders think they are immune to speed laws.

And let's face it, crash in an airbagged, crumple zoned car at 50 and you have an awful lot more chance than on a bike. Once speeds get about 60ish then either will be in deep merde if they crash.

living in the north lakes sunny weekends and the bikers come out on mass. I like bikes (don't ride one over here did when abroad) what seems to be the problem on the lakes roads (apart from them being twisty and crap surfaces) is when there are severa lbikers together, the lead one overtakes so all 6 or 7 must also overtake to keep up.

I know a guy who is an ex racer and works in the safety side of the industry. His view is racing is for the track. Not heard of an accident in the laes this year yet, but no doubt there will be omre flowers on teh side of the road before summer is over. Hopefully it won't happen but if it does i hope other road users aren't killed as well.

What an eye opening thread! I think I'll sell my road bikes! What bikers fail to realise is how completely selfish their behaviour is.

I went on a cycle tour with my son (on a tag-a-long) this weekend and the road we were planning to use was closed. The only alternative was to do few miles on an A road race track! Bikes (and cars) were travelling way in excess of the speed limit. I genuinely feared for our lives!

Also the parallels drawn to MTB earlier in this thread are meaningless; if I go beyond my limits on the MTB the only person that gets hurt is ME!

the lead one overtakes so all 6 or 7 must also overtake to keep up.

I have never really understood why they go out riding in big groups like this, stop at a pub for a coke and then ride back again.

Bit like big groups of mtbers too for that matter.

When I had a bike I went out once on a group ride, hated it, worrying about all the other riders, keeping up etc, much prefered riding on my own (it was transport for me not leisure anyway)

From the Office of National Statistics:

Motorcyclist road casualties, % from the whole of the UK in 2002: 6.5
Car Occupants road casualties, % from the whole of the UK in 2002: 69.7
Those figures prove to me how dangerous motorcycling is that when you take the comparison of how many miles are travelled by car in UK then motorcyclists are having 10 % of the accidents that car drivers (and any passengers) are having.

In 2004, figures from the Department for Transport in the UK indicated that motorcycles have 121 deaths or serious injuries per 100 million vehicle kilometers, compared to the corresponding figure of 2.6 for motorists.

Better to run out of talent on your mountain bike…

God. I can't be bothered to read all the posts complainging about bikes.

Lets' get a few things straight –

a) It's very very easy to list exampes of bikers riding like cocks. We all know it happens, we all know that biking attracts such people (Thrill seekers) by it's very nature. And as a result these people are very easy to spot. I've seen it myself, and been appaled by their lack of skill and manners.

b) Most of us don't ride like that. Not where you can see us, at least.

c) Biking is more dangerous than riding a car, but it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be. And that's not due to 'safety features' like airbags and traction control, it's due to education and better riding skills, a concept which is totally alien to 99.8% of car-only drivers

d) I can reel of a few car accident horror stories if you like? How many anti-car-driver rants do we see on STW, for instance? A fair few, yes?

e) The difference between a cock on a bike and a cock in car: You spot the bike more easily because it can simply get away with stuff a car cannot, for more of the time (Traffic stops cars, it doesn't stop bikes) and it's more note worthy so you remember it. And of course the predjudices that abound about motorcycles make it acceptable to slag them off

Simples 🙂

Peter – over defensive.

Traffic doesn't stop bikes – yes that's because they often overtake where there isn't strictly enough room.

I see this thread not as an anti bike rant – it's someone who witnessed a horrible accident. Several others then posted similar incidents. Of course some bikers take it as an affront to their chosen mode of transport…

Peter – over defensive.

Against this massive onslaught? I think not.

Of course some bikers take it as an affront to their chosen mode of transport…

So what is it then? I ride a mororbike. There's lots of people ramming it down my throat how bad it is, telling me how many bikers are eejits, how likely I am to die…. When (Mostly) they know precisely diddly-squat about what they are talking about. I take that as affront, as is my choice.
Next. 🙂

Traffic stops cars, it doesn't stop bikes

But that's one of the key problems isn't it – bikers can weave in and out of traffic but they often don't do it in a way that doesn't make the other road users brake hard/take avoiding action, even if it's not strictly necessary.

And the other thing is that people out in their cars are more typically going somewhere. Now they may drive boy-racer style but traffic typically makes it much harder even for those willing to take the same level of risk as many bikers. Bikers by contrast are more likely to be going out for no purpose other than to go for a ride and as such, ride to enjoy it which basically means going fast.

I take that as affront, as is my choice.

I'd take a motorcyclist's head making a sizeable dent in my A-pillar as an affront, personally 😐

So someone posting a motorbike death story is "ramming it down your throat" is he (or she?).

Of the very small number of bikers I know, four have died on their bikes. Another has very few bones left that aren't nailed together with metal pins.

Of the huge number of car drivers I know, only one recently died and the cops have yet to establish why but something very odd appeared to have happened (drifted into the wrong side of the road and into a petrol tanker).

So why do we know diddly squat? Is that your "argument?" We recite some stories, discuss silly riding we've seen but that makes us all ignorant?

It's your "us and them" mentality that alienates riders. I'd rather do my best to make life easier for sensible bike riders as well as for my family. Seeing a bike overtake many cars at 100 on a busy road doesn't really help the situation. Nor does getting over defensive.

Bikers by contrast are more likely to be going out for no purpose other than to go for a ride and as such

OK. And you don't do that on an MTB then?

Nothing wrong with that at all.

And you're wrong BTW, more jorneys on bikes are for transport reasons, not enjoyment. Go into a big city at rush hour. Far more bikes… 🙂

I do exactly that on my mtb – as I said in my first post. Once again however, the difference is that when I get it wrong, I hurt myself, not other people. If you go out on your motorbike or in your car and take risks that stand a reasonable chance of seriously injuring other people, you're a ******. Go and book a track day if that's what you want to do.

and as to your last point, I should have made clear I was referring to the weekend/good weather situations, not commuting.

So someone posting a motorbike death story is "ramming it down your throat" is he (or she?).

Yes.

Of the very small number of bikers I know, four have died on their bikes. Another has very few bones left that aren't nailed together with metal pins.

And, of the vastly more bikers that I know than you do, most (if not all) are still alive 😉
I know a few who've had some injuries (Broken limbs, say) and one who lost a leg (Whilst nearly stationary as a car overtook a car turning into the junction he was turning into, and took his right hand side out.
I've crashed 4 times IIRC, 2 of those I rode off home, one I pushed home, one I got knocked out. I've had worse injuries on push bikes.
Your statement proves nowt, my friend. 🙂

and as to your last point, I should have made clear I was referring to the weekend/good weather situations, not commuting.

Ha! Sorry, it doesn't work like that!!! 🙂

Make a point, be proved wrong, then change the goalposts – "Oh, no, sorry. I meant something diferent. Honest"

Yeah, right.

You said this
"Bikers by contrast are more likely to be going out for no purpose other than to go for a ride and as such, ride to enjoy it which basically means going fast. "

No mention of time in there at all, my old mucker. If you mean something, say it. Don't try and wriggle out of it later.
How many car journeys at weekends are 'for enjoyment' then? Holidays, nights out, visiting relatives, driving to sports activities etc? Same thing. 🙂

As I said, I should have made it clearer! That's what I was thinking about and forgot to make clear. Nothing sinister in there and my point (with my added caveat) is perfectly reasonable. You can't wriggle out of it that easily 😉

Not to mention, my main point about some people being ******* makes it irrelevant.

This is a cracking argumnet, BTW, I'm loving it. All in good humour too, I hope that comes across 'cos I'm using enough bloody smileys! 😀

As I said, I should have made it clearer!

Agreed 🙂

Your statement proves nowt, my friend.

Maybe not but the stats posted earlier certainly do.

See what you're doing is making assumptions – assuming "we" don't know many bikers, assuming "we" just passed a driving test and that's it, assuming "we" have no idea of road safety and defensive driving (which can be applied to cycling).

It's basically "you're all stupid, I'm not" – well you can't (but you will) argue with stats, you can't dismiss someones anecdotal evidence then chuck some of your own in, you can't just "tune" your "facts" to suit yourself.

FYI I have never had a single crash in a car and never got any points, yet I have plenty of "fun" in my cars.

My problem with motorbikes is the sodding exhausts, i live about a mile from a long straight road and come summer all you can hear is the damm things bouncing off the rev limiters.

Most bikers I know have crashed their bikes at least once through their own fault (and in my book that includes crashing on wet roads). Most of them have never crashed their cars. Proves nothing but says a lot to me at least.

But where would be a better place to direct our ire, considering those stats of road deaths?

Vastly more people are killed by cars than by motorbikes. Yes, more people drive cars, but surely we should be trying to prevent the most possible deaths.

To do that, we should be targeting dangerous, and far more prevalent, car driving.

To do otherwise is much like police crackdowns on cyclists riding without reflectors: it is ignoring the bull rampaging through the china shop.

Get the bikers!

😉

It seems everyone who's not a biker knows loads of bikers who've been killed/maimed, but for me (only riding for nearly 40 years, with almost 30 years on the road), I've never known a biker that was killed and tbh I'm racking my brains to even think of someone I know badly injuried.

As said in an earlier (unrelated subject) post, 5 years of mtbing has caused me more injuries than nearly 30 years of biking.

I suggest banning cars (or limiting them to 8mph like invalid carriages) from all areas where there are pedestrians. A man walking in front with a red flag might solve unemployment at a stroke…

TBH people ragging powerful motorbikes around suicidally. I'd rather they ragged a motorbike around than a 1.3 ton box on shared roads.

Sounds cruel but if they are being overly reckless/risk-taking hopefully its just them. Sorry.

Sadly the road conditions, other road users can cause unfortunate fatalies of motorbikes 🙁

I witnessed one such accident. Motorbiker side-swiped by a driver doing 40mph+. I had to stand infront of him to divert/block Man Utd matchday traffic on their rush up to the grounds. Otherwise they would have bloody run into him.