if your union is so powerful why does it have to potential resort to striking at the worse time of year?

Because we have a government who couldn’t give a **** about negotiating, who want to deliberately engineer confrontation with the public sector unions, so as to sway public opinion, along with their attack dogs in the media. Thus providing a cover for a completely ideological agenda to dismantle the welfare state, and privatise the public sector, wholesale

Are the leadership one dimension, simpletons?

No, clearly, that’ll be you! 🙄

Are the leadership one dimension, simpletons?

Not very nice of you to call us all simpletons. 🙁

Hora

Anyone who believes Unions are powerfull is in my opinion Niave, they are the only route for a employee to democratically voice their opinion/feelings to an employer.

As for striking, well again i reiterate that there has been no Ballot or insinuation that the fire service is planning industrial action during the olympics or at any point in the future.

However i am aware that there are legal requirements for action to be taken within 28 days of a succesful ballot.

If the fire service negotiations crumble/stall and a succesful ballot is announced then it is a legal requirement for industrial action to be conducted within that time frame or industrial action will need to be cancelled.

There is overwhelming evidence that if the fire service pension scheme continues to up it’s contribution rate, more people will be forced withdraw from it, this withdrawel means that there is not enough money going into the pot from employees, therefore the scheme will not make the ‘savings’ that this is all about, therefore defeating the whole exercise.

It is well documented that the goverment want public services to have decent pensions, but if they price us out of them and then the schemes fail they have publicly failed! Its because of this and the retirement age that i believe a negotiated new scheme will happen and i will be very sad if there is a need for industrial action to achieve this.

Lummox if you arent happy why dont you stop whinging, withdraw your labour permanently and go do something else with your life?

How many applicants per vacancy do the fire service get?

Are the leadership one dimension, simpletons?

No unless they voted you in when I was not looking

Is your argument that this wont be a good time to have/threaten industrial action? Ar eyou really suggesting unions will not be able to exert more levarage/get a better deal this week than the week after

FFS you may not like t but you cannot say it does not make sense.

As for the union sbeing powerful I think you may mistakenly think it is the 70’s

I dare mcboo to actually go and talk to firmen like that in person, without the protection of internet anonymity.

Why wouldn’t he? Or do you at some level think that firemen resort to violence if you don’t agree with them?

Because we have a government unions who couldn’t give a **** about negotiating, who want to deliberately engineer confrontation with the public sector unions government, so as to sway public opinion, along with their attack dogs in the media. Thus providing a cover for a completely ideological agenda to dismantle cripple the welfare state, and privatise the public sector increase their own importance, wholesale

Two ways of looking at everything. There’s been some good comment made so far about workers having the right to protest / withdraw labour when they’re shafted and also the fact the government had to do some pretty unpopular things to try and rescue the economy. Unfortunately neither side in this political war has covered itself in glory, the government should have tackled the bankers earlier, and harder, the unions need to grow up and realise they have an important role to play as role models in society.

Personally I don’t have faith in any of them, it’s well known that people who pursue power really shouldn’t be given the opportunity. Ironically getting to the top of government or a union requires being very adept at playing the political game and having an unswerving belief in your own superiority.

The confrontational relationship between unions and business over here helps no-one, and the constant stirring from both sides magnified by the press is ridiculous.

We should be working towards the German model of co-operation between union representatives and the boardrooms so issues have a chance of being solved before they become a problem (which is waaaaaaaay before strike action).

You dare me?

@stumpyjon

Why would Unions want to cripple the welfare state?

Why wouldn’t he? Or do you at some level think that firemen resort to violence if you don’t agree with them?

Because he is being patronising and offensive in a way only someone hiding behind a computer would be, it’s not a comment on firemen’s character, its a comment on mcboo.

So, I’ll throw it out there. If I don’t like my job, or the conditions of said job, or the pay, or the benefits it is my choice to leave said job. I could then find a new job with the benefits etc. I wanted.

If I could not find said new job I would then realise that I actually had it pretty good in my current job and that I was best off staying there.

If I do like my job I get on with it and do it.

lunge – Member
So, I’ll throw it out there. If I don’t like my job, or the conditions of said job, or the pay, or the benefits it is my choice to leave said job. I could then find a new job with the benefits etc. I wanted.

If I could not find said new job I would then realise that I actually had it pretty good in my current job and that I was best off staying there.

If I do like my job I get on with it and do it.

🙄

Because he is being patronising and offensive asking a good question

MSP do you only talk straight to people on the internet? Honestly I like to think I’m up front with people in person too, I’m sorry for you if you arent.

asking a good question

So am I, when are you going down to your local fire station to tell them

why dont you stop whinging, withdraw your labour permanently and go do something else with your life?

i would suggest Mcboo or anyone else should talk to firefighters, and NHS workers and police officers, and while you’re at it the armed forces too that way they get to speak to the people that these changes will effect rather than taking just my word or other internet statements for it.

i’m not whinging or whining, i merely questioned whether people felt what is being proposed was acceptable, because i don’t feel it is and it effects me.

Would you consider 60 or 65 to be an appropriate age to be wearing breathing apparatus in a house fire searching for and then rescuing casualties? Or manipulating the cutting equipment and physically removing people from cars that have been in accidents?

The fire service in the Uk doesn’t have a ‘safe’ desk job to put all the old crinklies behind when they get too old, you ride the trucks from day one to the day you retire as an operational firefighter, there is no difference between a new recruit (when was the last one of those seen?) and a 30 year service ff.

i don’t have the official figures for applicants versus jobs, but 12 years ago on my initial selection day there was at least 300 people queued for the group surnames a – d. The fact that so many people apply and fail to achieve the standard should suggest that maybe the fire service isn’t the kind of job you can just ‘walk into’ in fact you couldn’t now as there has been a recruitment freeze to assist ‘natural wastage’ for the last 4 years.

If it wasn’t the fire service but was a life long private pension scheme that this was happening too would you accept such a change of conditions and keep paying the new inflated premium for longer to achieve less at the end? I remember the uproar and anguish caused when private schemes collapsed.

i’m standing up for the contract and terms of employment i agreed to 12 years ago, i’ve not got my head in the sand about the UK’s financial problems but i have personal experience of what is being asked of us and therefore have tried to bring it in a reasoned way to this discussion to help inform people what is happening the other side of the glass.

I suspect some of the comments may be a trolling opportunity, and if thats the case then well done you got me.

Feel free to engage in a reasonable discussion, however suggesting that it’s just us having a whinge is a bit harsh.

hhmmm … Olympics … 🙄

So, I’ll throw it out there. If I don’t like my job, or the conditions of said job, or the pay, or the benefits it is my choice to leave said job. I could then find a new job with the benefits etc. I wanted.

If I could not find said new job I would then realise that I actually had it pretty good in my current job and that I was best off staying there.

If I do like my job I get on with it and do it.

Shhh… This is no place for logical thought. Fire up the braziers! Make the placards. Down with this sort of thing. Aux Barricades!

Lifer – Member
The confrontational relationship between unions and business over here helps no-one, and the constant stirring from both sides magnified by the press is ridiculous.

We should be working towards the German model of co-operation between union representatives and the boardrooms so issues have a chance of being solved before they become a problem (which is waaaaaaaay before strike action).

Would that be the same Germany who’s economy is doing so well that despite the slump, they can afford to “lend” billions of Euros to the hard-working Greeks?

What’s that got to do with unions Woppit?

AndyP – that’s not logical thought that’s simplfying to absurdity.

Would you consider 60 or 65 to be an appropriate age to be wearing breathing apparatus in a house fire searching for and then rescuing casualties? Or manipulating the cutting equipment and physically removing people from cars that have been in accidents?

the same could be said of many private sector jobs, roofers, scaffolders, people who dig up the road etc etc

the answer is in most cases no, but when you aren’t able to do the role you change your job just like everyone else does

interestingly you compare refer to the the military, I suggest they look at doing what they there to fire fighters and put you on defined term contracts rather than jobs for “life” and using that to drive an artificially low retirement age

People’s lives aren’t in the hands of roofers, scaffolders etc

*Pre-emptive pedantry blocker – except the people on the roof/scaffold/etc*

And if Firefighters were to leave ‘early’ (after the FB increased the age of retirement) then they wouldn’t receive the full pension.

bigyinn – Member
Yes thats going to make our country look really great isn’t it. FFS. First its the tube drivers and now this.

The olympics might have some benefit for the image of the country.

lunge – Member
So, I’ll throw it out there. If I don’t like my job, or the conditions of said job, or the pay, or the benefits it is my choice to leave said job. I could then find a new job with the benefits etc. I wanted.

If I could not find said new job I would then realise that I actually had it pretty good in my current job and that I was best off staying there.

If I do like my job I get on with it and do it.

There speaks a poster who doesn’t understand how labour markets work for most people.

Would you consider 60 or 65 to be an appropriate age to be wearing breathing apparatus in a house fire searching for and then rescuing casualties? Or manipulating the cutting equipment and physically removing people from cars that have been in accidents?

Quite possibly not. I’m not suggesting firemen get kept on at that age and certainly not found some non-job just so they can keep accruing years until they get their pension. Soldiers generally leave at 22yrs so most folk are done at 40-45……its a young man’s game.

If it wasn’t the fire service but was a life long private pension scheme that this was happening too would you accept such a change of conditions and keep paying the new inflated premium for longer to achieve less at the end? I remember the uproar and anguish caused when private schemes collapsed.

Sorry but terms and conditions are not set in stone. An employer has the right to change those terms and the employee has the right to stick two fingers up and take his/her talents elsewhere.

How badly will the athletes performance’s nosedive if their doctors go on strike?

mc boo you must realise your tone is not at all concilliatory and rather confrontational..you can call being an arse hinest if you like.
I find it hard to beleieve you act like that in the real world. I imagine some fist pie would come your way were you to behave like that in the real world.

its a shame that only on here do you let your inner beauty shine through 😉

Look folk disagree is there any real need to put special effort into ensuring it happens? being disparaging of others
the firction is there without any effort being neccessarry
perhaps we could debate without being cocks for once?

we know employers have the right and as you note employees can withdraw labour [via striking or permanently] so there you go both sides have the right to do something that may or may not be unreasonable…glad we sorted that one out 😀

mcboo – Member
Apparently the great American writer jack London had this to say on the matter of strikebreakers:
Ah Jack London was one of my favourites at school. I liked his books a lot but I could never figure out if he was a socialist or white supremacist. What do you think?

“After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab. A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles. When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and Angels weep in Heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out….”

Although not appearing officially in any records of his works, the “definition of a scab” is widely attributed to London, and was recognised as such in a 1974 US Supreme Court Case were it was found to be not defamatory nor libelous, and as such was protected under the First Amendment.
If you believe it, or him, to be socialist then I won’t argue. There certainly was a documented period of his life when he was a member of the Socialist Labour Party. However life is a journey and people change ; its clear that once he had his fame and fortune his political views became more and more Right Wing. I like Mark Twain’s quote regarding his post-socialist period:

[Mark Twain said] “It would serve this man London right to have the working class get control of things. He would have to call out the militia to collect his royalties.”

If he’d have lived in more modern times his views may have been different, but a similarly apt description of an ex-socialist writer becoming rich and becoming Right Wing was recently used to describe Hitchens:

a (drink-soaked) former Trotskyist popinjay

I think that may be a good description for London towards the end of his life too, (if he had drunk more and not preceded Trotsky chronologically 🙂 )

You say you liked his books a lot at school. Do you still like them or have you changed your opinions now? If so, why?

Lifer – Member
What’s that got to do with unions Woppit?

We should be working towards the German model of co-operation between union representatives and the boardrooms

Er…

… and, The Hitch must have been completely DISTRAUGHT to be called a “popinjay” (ooh, language).

Especially by that Great Servant Of The People gorgeous George “Pussycat” Galloway.

Feh.

a (drink-soaked) former Trotskyist popinjay

Copywrite George Galloway

My 9yr old read Call of the Wild last year, loved it. Reminds me I need to get him started on To Build a Fire, that one scared me.

Mr Woppit – Member

“Lifer – Member
What’s that got to do with unions Woppit?”

We should be working towards the German model of co-operation between union representatives and the boardrooms

Er…

Ah I see, it has the word ‘German’ in it.

But really what does the relationship between unions and companies in Germany have to do with how the euro is being run?

There speaks a poster who doesn’t understand how labour markets work for most people.

Not true, there are plenty of things I know nothing about but labour markets is one I know more than most about. Yes, this knowledge is based on the job I do in the “real world” rather than an ideology but still, it is a fair amount more knowledge than most I would imagine.

Anyway, to comment further, said labour market is constantly changing, which skills are in demand changes, average length of service changes, employer and employee expectations change. Some people embrace these changes and are keen to learn new skills as they realise that people now stay in jobs a lot shorter time than they used to. They adapt to what “the market” wants to ensure their skills are in demand and so if/when they find themselves looking they know they can find. The happy upside to this is these people will often earn a few more pounds.

Ah I see, it has the word ‘German’ in it.

… and, “unions”…

But really what does the relationship between unions and companies in Germany have to do with how the euro is being run?

I was trying to establish a link between the “German model” and their economy being so strong despite a world slump, that they can afford to “lend” billions to Greece.

Sorry if that wasn’t clear. Perhaps you should abandon trying to speed-read…

Back on topic, I predict:

1) There will be no Olympic strikes, its all posturing for position, and public opinion would ensure there is no support.
2) If there is an Olympic Strike, the Army will be used to cover.
3) If more bodies are needed, the unemployed will be used under contract to a4e through the workfare scheme.
4) a riot

There appear to be some very confused people on this thread. Let’s look at some facts:

1. No-one has called a strike for during the Olympics.
2. No-one is balloting for a strike during the olympics.
3. Strikes (or the threat of strikes) are a tool of last resort for negotiating with employers.
4. For strikes to be effective, they need to cause some inconvenience or disruption. Calling a strike during the Olympics would cause inconvenience and disruption.

Which is pretty much what McCluskey said. I can’t see what’s controversial about it.

Mr Woppit – Member

“Ah I see, it has the word ‘German’ in it.”

… and, “unions”…

“But really what does the relationship between unions and companies in Germany have to do with how the euro is being run?”

I was trying to establish a link between the “German model” and their economy being so strong despite a world slump, that they can afford to “lend” billions to Greece.

Sorry if that wasn’t clear. Perhaps you should abandon trying to speed-read…

Apologies, it just seemed too straightforward a point for STW, I was looking for the trap.

5. Me and like minded souls volunteer to make the games work rather than die of national embarrasment.

Cool! Will you be going to work for free in Tesco afterwards

Cool! Will you be going to work for free in Tesco afterwards

No I will be returning to my cave at the pumping heart of global capitalism. Thanks.