Oh look, more strikes « Singletrack Forum

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Oh look, more strikes

141 posts & 41 voices | Started 6 months ago by mcboo | Latest reply from CaptainFlashheart

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Junkyard - Member

If your public sector and on here arguing?

Why not get off a forum and give us more value?

if you are in the private sector why not show us how much harder you work and go do some real work to bring in some money to pay our wages
I am not in work today where are you Hora?

You think renumeration is not contractual nor part of your T & C
Do you want a copy of my contract?
AH scrub that being in the pension is contractual the payouts are not as they can alter them without consent - then again they can do that with my wages as well and most other T & C so I suppose it depends. if they removed my pension I would fancy my chances in a constructive dismissal claim though as it would be a substantive change.

Posted 6 months ago #
ransos - Member

T&C's?

Are you sure public sector pensions are contractual elements of the terms and conditions of employment?

I think you'll find otherwise....

Who said anything about a contractual entitlement? It's instructive that the best you can offer is pedantry...and you're not even very good at that.

Posted 6 months ago #
teamhurtmore - Member

Trying to make them look like greedy self serving individuals whilst not really touching the banking sector or the wage rises of say the top FTSE employees just draws lines in sand and makes both sides more militant.

Very true - we agree!!

As I said at the start = let the strike go ahead and lets see where public opinion lies.

QT was slightly bizare last night - two joke panelists - Philip Hitchens (for his pomposity), Benjamin Zephania (for complete lack of any value) - the elder statemen - Shirley Williams - who was balanced, amusing about Berlosconi and clever at dodging the curve balls with, "...but that's another question."

And then May versus Balls - surprisingly lacking in controversy. Agreed on more things that I would expect, May uncomfortable on some details and Balls more humble than usual. In fact, he was almost bearable until he started on his pre-determined point scoring. Not bad for a man who designed banking reform and regulation but who chooses to accept no responsiblity for the outcome.

Posted 6 months ago #
julianwilson - Member

teahurtmore, the answer to your rhetorical question:

Why should low-paid workers effectively subsidise highly paid public sector workers.

is that the average nhs wage is within £1000 of the overall average uk wage, (varies within that £1k depending in the part of the country you live in for some reason). Given the higher level of qualifications demanded in teaching I would expect it to be higher in education, and less in local authorities who employ many binmen, landscapers and so on.

Zulu:

The unison ballot was on industrial action over the local government pension scheme

That's not what my ballot letter from Unison said. I am assuming you didn't get one.

Again Zulu, are you a member of a union?

Posted 6 months ago #
ransos - Member

"Given the higher level of qualifications demanded in teaching I would expect it to be higher in education, and less in local authorities who employ many binmen, landscapers and so on. "

Most of those kinds of jobs in local authorities are contracted out.

Posted 6 months ago #
julianwilson - Member

Not round here they aren't...... yet!

(Plymouth also still just about has a 'corporation' run bus service, one of the last in the country I believe. Like many places, they have sold the bus stops themselves out to JC Décaux though.)

Posted 6 months ago #
Northwind - Member

hora - Member
Greece is creaking due to its public sector liabilities.

Some other Greece that the rest of us haven't heard of maybe?

Posted 6 months ago #
ransos - Member

Not round here they aren't...... yet!

There are of course exceptions, but the general picture is that bus services, bin collections, parks maintenance etc are all contracted out.

Given that the government is weakening TUPE regulations, expect to see even more of it as the private sector is able to do these jobs cheaper because they can cut their employees remuneration.

Posted 6 months ago #
Zulu-Eleven - Member

Julianwilson:

RE: Trade dispute over changes to local government pensions

I wouls imagine that yours may have said NHS - but neither have anythign to do with teachers penaiosn

Why on earth would I want to be a member of a troskyite union?

Posted 6 months ago #
Sancho - Member

I can't believe people on here blathering on about proecting public sector wages, pensions etc.

there isnt the money in the country to pay for it all.
We have been living beyond our means for too long and now the debt bubble of developed nations has burst.
Unless the UK starts living within its means then the country will be **** for decades.

If you had a private company like the public sector and its revenue was reduced, then it would either go to the wall or have to lay people off.

Get in the real world and accept the economic disaster we are living in is similar to the great depression of the 30's and drop the political rubbish, all parties accept the need to get the budget back on track following years of folly.

Posted 6 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

the tory party and the right wing press thank you for swallowing the message hook line and sinker and repeating it for them.
should we try and regulate banking that got us into this mess or just go for public sector workers?
Given the teachers pension is self funding about to peak and legislated by law that any shortfall comes from members pay packets in what sense is it unaffordable
Please dont let some facts stop you from your polemic whilst asking us not get political]It was a bit blatant and the ministry of truth advises subtler posting

Posted 6 months ago #
ebygomm - Member

The thing that annoys me most about the pensions debate is the phrase "Public sector pensions" as though they're all one and the same thing. Any discussion about funds/shortfalls etc. should have to make specific reference to the Pension scheme they're actually talking about.

If the changes go ahead, I wonder how many under 30s will pull out of their schemes or decide not to join. I thought the government wanted to encourage people to start saving for pensions earlier. Letting people see you can change the rules as you see fit isn't going to encourage anyone.

Posted 6 months ago #
5lab - Member

if some of the funds are in 'credit' - why not simply privatise them? It seems this would stop these kinda arguments in their tracks?

i do find the 'teacher pension' example interesting - £6k a year is a lot - if we suppose most folk pay 5% of their salery, and its matched by their employer, you have to earn 60k/year to get a pension of the same size in the private sector (almost double what the teacher would be earning)..

Posted 6 months ago #
hora - Member

Sancho stop talking common sense. Seriously.

Have you ever had a conversation with someone from the public sector? They sort of talk on a different wavelength. A friend of mine is a teacher and her biggest financial worry is will her pension be reduced from final salary.

Mine is having a job tomorrow.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

ebygomm - Member

If the changes go ahead, I wonder how many under 30s will pull out of their schemes or decide not to join.

I believe this to be one of the aims - so then the schemes can be closed as " no one wants to join" so then they can make everyone take out private pensions thus creating more money for their friends

Posted 6 months ago #
Sancho - Member

"Given the teachers pension is self funding"

Lol where did you dig up this gem of information.

how is it possible to finance an undefined cost with a pre-defined contribution?

Teachers pay into a defined contribution scheme. The payments should
go into a properly administered fund, as final salary pension schemes
used to. Teachers pension contributions actually go to the government
and pensions are paid from government funds, just like the state
pension.

Posted 6 months ago #
miketually - Member

If you had a private company like the public sector and its revenue was reduced, then it would either go to the wall or have to lay people off.

Unless it's a bank, of course.

Posted 6 months ago #
miketually - Member

i do find the 'teacher pension' example interesting - £6k a year is a lot - if we suppose most folk pay 5% of their salery, and its matched by their employer, you have to earn 60k/year to get a pension of the same size in the private sector (almost double what the teacher would be earning)..

There's a clue there in your final parentheses.

Posted 6 months ago #
breatheeasy - Member

I believe this to be one of the aims - so then the schemes can be closed as " no one wants to join" so then they can make everyone take out private pensions thus creating more money for their friends

More likely current pension funds will be ringfenced with no new applicants. All new employees will probably be on Local Government Pension V2, which will be either reduced benefits or something tweaked like accrual rates.

Basically like most private companies have done with their pension schemes.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Sancho - the teachers pension has a cap on the government contribution - any shortfall must come from either reduced benefits or increased contributions.

There is no undefined cost to the taxpayer possible

Posted 6 months ago #
breatheeasy - Member

Maybe a stupid question, but how does a pension become 'self funding'? Is there an assumption that the taxes from a teacher will cover their pension costs, or that the £x billion given to education each year covers the cost of the pension payments?

Posted 6 months ago #
Sancho - Member

don't forget the teachers pension is on top of their state pension.

And Im sorry but teachers get a shit hot pension deal.
I worry about working next year and worry myself to death over the lads that work for me and wanting them to still be in a job next year, not pissing about worrying about another 3% additional contribution.

Posted 6 months ago #
Sancho - Member

TJ if a lot of teachers retire early and a lot of new teachers dont take up the pensions will all the other teachers rally round and "top-up" the shortfall.

And it still isnt self funding, it should be, but its not, its the same argument as road tax fuel duty, it all goes to central government and they waste it.

Posted 6 months ago #
5lab - Member

There's a clue there in your final parentheses.

not sure what your point is? that teachers should keep the same pension but earn £60k/annum? nearly triple the national average? It would get better quality teaching staff through the doo, granted..

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Sancho - thats what the new scheme does - any shortfall has to be made up from contributions. This scheme was reviewed recently to arrive at the position where is sustainable with no open-ended commitment from the taxpayer.

Central government wastes money? you mean they don't spend it on services they chuck it in landfill?

Posted 6 months ago #
miketually - Member

TJ if a lot of teachers retire early and a lot of new teachers dont take up the pensions will all the other teachers rally round and "top-up" the shortfall.

That's how the scheme's set up, yes.

I worry about working next year and worry myself to death over the lads that work for me and wanting them to still be in a job next year

We (6th form college) had redundancies in the summer. Probably more to come too.

Posted 6 months ago #
miketually - Member

not sure what your point is? that teachers should keep the same pension but earn £60k/annum? nearly triple the national average? It would get better quality teaching staff through the doo, granted..

Teachers' take home pay is (relatively) low. To compensate, they get a bigger pension.

Posted 6 months ago #
5lab - Member

Teachers' take home pay is (relatively) low. To compensate, they get a bigger pension.

is it? an AST (advanced skills teacher) can take home up to 64k, or 60k outside of london. with 65 days annual paid leave, that's already a pretty well compensated package. If you pro-rata 64k with 27 days leave (around average for a private sector job), that's a 77k package.

Posted 6 months ago #
ransos - Member

is it? an AST (advanced skills teacher) can take home up to 64k, or 60k outside of london. with 65 days annual paid leave, that's already a pretty well compensated package. If you pro-rata 64k with 27 days leave (around average for a private sector job), that's a 77k package.

The average teacher's salary is around £32K. They also spend a fair amount of their evenings marking and preparing lessons. Cherry picking to suit your argument looks a bit petty...

Posted 6 months ago #
5lab - Member

The average teacher's salary is around £32K. They also spend a fair amount of their evenings marking and preparing lessons. Cherry picking to suit your argument looks a bit petty...

if that's true, it suggests the average teacher's career is 6 years and they don't (on average) apply for any of the additional salery packages (such as AST, TLR, pay for excellent teachers, deputy/head teacher, etc etc).

It probably is the right figure if you bring part time teachers into play, and eliminate heads etc, but thats a bit of a distorted scale. Even so, if you pro-rata the holidays out, its nigh on 39k. I'd say that kinda salery doesn't need a compensatory pension. I'm not saying teachers are overpaid, I'm suggesting they probably don't need a pension package worth nearly double what a similar private sector employee would earn

My other half is a teacher, so I know how much time is spent marking/lesson planning. Most teachers average about 4 hours/day on lessons, so it seems spending 5 doing other activities would pretty much bring them up with the average private sector worker?

Posted 6 months ago #
the hustler - Member

You want the real truth?

Union membership is on thre decline, so unions must be seen to be active in favour of their members or even more people will think "why be in a union?"

The unions know the current public spending is unsustainable but you know they gotta rty and look good

Posted 6 months ago #
ransos - Member

if that's true, it suggests the average teacher's career is 6 years and they don't (on average) apply for any of the additional salery packages (such as AST, TLR, pay for excellent teachers, deputy/head teacher, etc etc).

By definition, those additions are not available to the majority. You're cherry picking again.

The maximum pay on the main payscale is £31,552, full time.

http://www.tda.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/teaching-salary-scales.aspx

I think that teachers do a difficult and stressful job, for which they are just about adequately remunerated. Their pension is part of that remuneration.

By contrast, my wife teaches adults in the private sector and earns far more than that. She also gets 35 days holiday.

Posted 6 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

Sancho stop talking common sense. Seriously.

if hora is your ally in a talking sense competition retire from said conversation is probably better advice.
SO mark you at work then?

here is one of the places where you can dig up the gem - to be fair it is financed by members contributions but it is actually a notional fund rather than an actual fund
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN00405.pdf

Like most of the public service schemes, the Teachers’ Pension Scheme operates on a pay-as-you-go (PAYG) basis. 5 This means that employer and employee contributions are paid to the sponsoring government department, which pays out pension benefits, netting off the contributions received.
The Teachers’ Pension Scheme (TPS) is “notionally funded”. This means that periodic valuations are carried out as though there was a fund. Contributions are set on the basis of these valuations. Gerald Rhodes in his 1965 report, “Public Sector Pensions”, explains that notional funding as an arrangement was first developed for the Post Office (PO) scheme. The PO scheme had originally been part of the Civil Service scheme (a PAYG scheme). In order that the cost of pensions could be “fairly” represented in the PO accounts, it was decided to conform as nearly as possible to normal commercial practice and to assess what the position would have been had the scheme been funded.6
The TPS was set up in the 1920s as a notional fund because it was decided that a real fund would be too expensive:
The pension fund for teachers was set up in the 1920s. It was established as a notional fund to which teachers and their employers were required to contribute prescribed amounts towards the costs of pensions. Notional funding was preferred to real funding because the setting up of a real fund was considered too expensive at the time (though real funds were retained for other local government employees and for universities). Before that teachers’ pensions were paid on a non-contributory basis similar to civil servants.7
The TPS regulations require an account to be maintained, known as the Teachers’ Pension Account, to which contributions from members and employers are credited and from which expenditure on benefits is debited. A notional investment income is assumed on the balance in the account. However, contributions from members and employers are paid to the Exchequer, and the Exchequer effectively meets the cost of all benefits.8
A Working Group set up in 1997 looked at the funding basis and decided that no fundamental change. A change to a funded scheme, it said, would involve significantly higher costs for a period of almost fifty years:

I suppose we could argue the toss but payments are based on a "fund" even though the fund is not real but it has accounts. so we could both argue the case - probably fair to say I overstated the case but their payments are based on what they have paid into the "fund"

TJ if a lot of teachers retire early and a lot of new teachers dont take up the pensions will all the other teachers rally round and "top-up" the shortfall.

legally any shortfall has to be met by members rather than employers contributions so they either will or it will collapse

My other half is a teacher, so I know how much time is spent marking/lesson planning. Most teachers average about 4 hours/day on lessons, so it seems spending 5 doing other activities would pretty much bring them up with the average private sector worker?

yes that's the great thing I found about lessons they just plan themselves and the resources just magically appear on your desk as the bell goes and the homework just before it ends. Obviously we never went to meetings either

Posted 6 months ago #
mcboo - Member

Whats the Labour Party view on this?

Posted 6 months ago #
ransos - Member

"Whats the Labour Party view on this? "

They're not supporting the strike. If you could find out exactly what they are in favour of, could you let me know, as I'm at a complete loss.

Posted 6 months ago #