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Greece is creaking due to its public sector liabilities.
Public sector workers in NIMBY shocker.
Of course not, but why do have some have the right to be immune from these pressures?
Is anyone saying that? I honestly think that if public sector pensions were properly evaluated wrt what's affordable, then the unions would be more accepting.
"Greece is creaking due to its public sector liabilities."
Absolutely not the reason why Greece is creaking.
So teamhurtmore - how do you deal with the fact that even pensions such as the teachers where there is no possible unsustainable taxpayer contribution required in that the taxpayer contribution is capped and that there is plenty of money to pay all the benefits, teachers are still being told they have to work longer for a smaller pension.
Ransos and JY - you both seem to recognise why some in the private sector feel aggrieved - particularly low paid employees. [b]So what is it that makes the public sector so special that they feel the right to be immune to the same pressures that the private sector is facing and why do they feel the right to subject future generations to fund a system that they cannot aspire to?[/b] It kind of goes against the equality arguments that you normally propose elsewhere (IMHO)!!
So what would you say to them?
that they are not subsiding pensions for the public sector via tax. I would stop the government lying to them
and why do they feel the right to subject future generations to fund a system that they cannot aspire to?
This is simply not true in any meaningfull way.
So teamhurtmore - how do you deal with the fact that even pensions such as the teachers where there is no possible unsustainable taxpayer contribution required in that the taxpayer contribution is capped and that there is plenty of money to pay all the benefits, teachers are still being told they have to work longer for a smaller pension.
The unison ballot was on industrial action over the [u]local government pension scheme [/u]
Any referefence to the Teachers pension scheme is a straw man argument.
So what is it that makes the public sector so special that they feel the right to be immune to the same pressures that the private sector is facing
Why should the public sector roll over and accept the changes that the private sector had forced upon them? I don't see why we shouldn't defend our T&Cs just because the private sector couldn't.
As I said before, this isn't about affordability.
There are valid arguments on both sides, if I were a public servant (I used to be) I'd be hanging onto my pension for grim death.
But there is a consensus from the parties is there not? All 3 are committed to pension reform, it's the nature of opposition that you don't have to spell out what YOU would do but Labour would be in the same boat.
Let's be honest though, one day strike, or even a series of them isnt going to make a damn bit of difference. Haringey council on strike you say?
The unison ballot was on industrial action over the local government pension schemeAny referefence to the Teachers pension scheme is a straw man argument.
You're wrong: the teachers have already balloted.
If your public sector and on here arguing?
Why not get off a forum and give us more value?
This thread is hilarious 🙂
What people are forgetting is that this is a labour led idea.
Its just that Gordon Brown didnt have the guts to implement the recommendations as his ratings were low and he wanted to win an election, and that Milliband is going along with it.
Its unfortunately a necessary evil that we have to make cuts to the countries outoings as we have a debt that needs to be paid off.
Im sure there are other places to make cuts, like why do benefits have to go up 5.2%, surely they should be cut back.
But it does make for a fun and lively debate.
he real winners are the highly paid public sector employees
yes i agree i would cap it personally
Did you see BBC QT last night. Ed Balls made a strong and passionate defence of capitalism!!
Missed it – dont watch it as much as I sued to more a Raido 4 man these days
Of course not, but why do have some have the right to be immune from these pressures?
No reason I can think of tbh but the issue is how you convince them of this fact not me. I think most people accept change will happen it is just what the change is tbh. You also have to realise older people [ and therefore oddly more senior workers] are more likely to be in the union than newer employees...bit like church 😉 making it harder still as they are nearer to getting their pension
So what would you say to them?
Join a union get a better pension see you at St Pauls 😀
Managing change is difficult and it needs to be handled well villfying them wont help. Trying to make them look like greedy self serving individuals whilst not really touching the banking sector or the wage rises of say the top FTSE employees just draws lines in sand and makes both sides more militant. Somehow a consensus needs to be found. I am not sure that the current approach [ both sides to be fair] is going to help much
Hora in getting it wrong shocker
So what is it that makes the public sector so special that they feel the right to be immune to the same pressures that the private sector is facing and why do they feel the right to subject future generations to fund a system that they cannot aspire to?
It all depends as well the teachers pensions funded and has an agreement in law that nay shotfall has to be met my increased members contribution. The civil service one does not have apot iirc and is just paid from general taxation so we are not necessarily comparing like with like within public sector pension schemes.
I suspect the public sector workers would support the private sector in getting a better pension deal if we could strike for you. Equally why should they have a poor pension just because they did not unionise and fight for it? It seems more an argument about how private companies care for their shareholders not their workers - which is obviously true
We need to seek consensus here not get polarised and hurl abuse [ I know we are not doing this but its coming on this thread sooner or later]
Personally I would improve private pensions via legislation - especially for organisations above a certain size. i would look at the public sector schemes individually rather than collectively and evaluate each on their merits. I would start a campaign to educate members that there are affordability issues and pretend I was on their side whilst trying to move them to the position where they are willing to accept change. I would stop saying its better than the private sector ones as well because most people are selfish and dont really care all they care is that they will now be worse off.
I don't see why we shouldn't defend our T&Cs just because the private sector couldn't.
T&C's?
Are you sure public sector pensions are contractual elements of the terms and conditions of employment?
I think you'll find otherwise....
If your public sector and on here arguing?Why not get off a forum and give us more value?
if you are in the private sector why not show us how much harder you work and go do some real work to bring in some money to pay our wages 🙄
I am not in work today where are you Hora?
You think renumeration is not contractual nor part of your T & C 😯
Do you want a copy of my contract?
AH scrub that being in the pension is contractual the payouts are not as they can alter them without consent - then again they can do that with my wages as well and most other T & C so I suppose it depends. if they removed my pension I would fancy my chances in a constructive dismissal claim though as it would be a substantive change.
T&C's?Are you sure public sector pensions are contractual elements of the terms and conditions of employment?
I think you'll find otherwise....
Who said anything about a contractual entitlement? It's instructive that the best you can offer is pedantry...and you're not even very good at that.
Trying to make them look like greedy self serving individuals whilst not really touching the banking sector or the wage rises of say the top FTSE employees just draws lines in sand and makes both sides more militant.
Very true - we agree!!
As I said at the start = let the strike go ahead and lets see where public opinion lies.
QT was slightly bizare last night - two joke panelists - Philip Hitchens (for his pomposity), Benjamin Zephania (for complete lack of any value) - the elder statemen - Shirley Williams - who was balanced, amusing about Berlosconi and clever at dodging the curve balls with, "...but that's another question."
And then May versus Balls - surprisingly lacking in controversy. Agreed on more things that I would expect, May uncomfortable on some details and Balls more humble than usual. In fact, he was almost bearable until he started on his pre-determined point scoring. Not bad for a man who designed banking reform and regulation but who chooses to accept no responsiblity for the outcome.
teahurtmore, the answer to your rhetorical question:
Why should low-paid workers effectively subsidise highly paid public sector workers.
is that the average nhs wage is within £1000 of the overall average uk wage, (varies within that £1k depending in the part of the country you live in for some reason). Given the higher level of qualifications demanded in teaching I would expect it to be higher in education, and less in local authorities who employ many binmen, landscapers and so on.
Zulu:
The unison ballot was on industrial action over the local government pension scheme
That's not what my ballot letter from Unison said. I am assuming you didn't get one.
Again Zulu, are you a member of a union?
"Given the higher level of qualifications demanded in teaching I would expect it to be higher in education, and less in local authorities who employ many binmen, landscapers and so on. "
Most of those kinds of jobs in local authorities are contracted out.
Not round here they aren't...... yet!
(Plymouth also still just about has a 'corporation' run bus service, one of the last in the country I believe. Like many places, they have sold the bus stops themselves out to JC Décaux though.)
hora - Member
Greece is creaking due to its public sector liabilities.
Some other Greece that the rest of us haven't heard of maybe?
Not round here they aren't...... yet!
There are of course exceptions, but the general picture is that bus services, bin collections, parks maintenance etc are all contracted out.
Given that the government is weakening TUPE regulations, expect to see even more of it as the private sector is able to do these jobs cheaper because they can cut their employees remuneration.
Julianwilson:
RE: Trade dispute over changes to local government pensions
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I wouls imagine that yours may have said NHS - but neither have anythign to do with teachers penaiosn
Why on earth would I want to be a member of a troskyite union?
I can't believe people on here blathering on about proecting public sector wages, pensions etc.
there isnt the money in the country to pay for it all.
We have been living beyond our means for too long and now the debt bubble of developed nations has burst.
Unless the UK starts living within its means then the country will be ****ed for decades.
If you had a private company like the public sector and its revenue was reduced, then it would either go to the wall or have to lay people off.
Get in the real world and accept the economic disaster we are living in is similar to the great depression of the 30's and drop the political rubbish, all parties accept the need to get the budget back on track following years of folly.
the tory party and the right wing press thank you for swallowing the message hook line and sinker and repeating it for them.
should we try and regulate banking that got us into this mess or just go for public sector workers?
Given the teachers pension is self funding about to peak and legislated by law that any shortfall comes from members pay packets in what sense is it unaffordable
Please dont let some facts stop you from your polemic whilst asking us not get political]It was a bit blatant and the ministry of truth advises subtler posting
The thing that annoys me most about the pensions debate is the phrase "Public sector pensions" as though they're all one and the same thing. Any discussion about funds/shortfalls etc. should have to make specific reference to the Pension scheme they're actually talking about.
If the changes go ahead, I wonder how many under 30s will pull out of their schemes or decide not to join. I thought the government wanted to encourage people to start saving for pensions earlier. Letting people see you can change the rules as you see fit isn't going to encourage anyone.
if some of the funds are in 'credit' - why not simply privatise them? It seems this would stop these kinda arguments in their tracks?
i do find the 'teacher pension' example interesting - £6k a year is a lot - if we suppose most folk pay 5% of their salery, and its matched by their employer, you have to earn 60k/year to get a pension of the same size in the private sector (almost double what the teacher would be earning)..
Sancho stop talking common sense. Seriously.
Have you ever had a conversation with someone from the public sector? They sort of talk on a different wavelength. A friend of mine is a teacher and her biggest financial worry is will her pension be reduced from final salary.
Mine is having a job tomorrow.
ebygomm - MemberIf the changes go ahead, I wonder how many under 30s will pull out of their schemes or decide not to join.
I believe this to be one of the aims - so then the schemes can be closed as " no one wants to join" so then they can make everyone take out private pensions thus creating more money for their friends
"Given the teachers pension is self funding"
Lol where did you dig up this gem of information.
how is it possible to finance an undefined cost with a pre-defined contribution?
Teachers pay into a defined contribution scheme. The payments should
go into a properly administered fund, as final salary pension schemes
used to. Teachers pension contributions actually go to the government
and pensions are paid from government funds, just like the state
pension.
If you had a private company like the public sector and its revenue was reduced, then it would either go to the wall or have to lay people off.
Unless it's a bank, of course.
i do find the 'teacher pension' example interesting - £6k a year is a lot - if we suppose most folk pay 5% of their salery, and its matched by their employer, you have to earn 60k/year to get a pension of the same size in the private sector (almost double what the teacher would be earning)..
There's a clue there in your final parentheses.
I believe this to be one of the aims - so then the schemes can be closed as " no one wants to join" so then they can make everyone take out private pensions thus creating more money for their friends
More likely current pension funds will be ringfenced with no new applicants. All new employees will probably be on Local Government Pension V2, which will be either reduced benefits or something tweaked like accrual rates.
Basically like most private companies have done with their pension schemes.
Sancho - the teachers pension has a cap on the government contribution - any shortfall must come from either reduced benefits or increased contributions.
There is no undefined cost to the taxpayer possible
Maybe a stupid question, but how does a pension become 'self funding'? Is there an assumption that the taxes from a teacher will cover their pension costs, or that the £x billion given to education each year covers the cost of the pension payments?
don't forget the teachers pension is on top of their state pension.
And Im sorry but teachers get a shit hot pension deal.
I worry about working next year and worry myself to death over the lads that work for me and wanting them to still be in a job next year, not pissing about worrying about another 3% additional contribution.
TJ if a lot of teachers retire early and a lot of new teachers dont take up the pensions will all the other teachers rally round and "top-up" the shortfall.
And it still isnt self funding, it should be, but its not, its the same argument as road tax fuel duty, it all goes to central government and they waste it.
There's a clue there in your final parentheses.
not sure what your point is? that teachers should keep the same pension but earn £60k/annum? nearly triple the national average? It would get better quality teaching staff through the doo, granted..
Sancho - thats what the new scheme does - any shortfall has to be made up from contributions. This scheme was reviewed recently to arrive at the position where is sustainable with no open-ended commitment from the taxpayer.
Central government wastes money? you mean they don't spend it on services they chuck it in landfill?
TJ if a lot of teachers retire early and a lot of new teachers dont take up the pensions will all the other teachers rally round and "top-up" the shortfall.
That's how the scheme's set up, yes.
I worry about working next year and worry myself to death over the lads that work for me and wanting them to still be in a job next year
We (6th form college) had redundancies in the summer. Probably more to come too.
not sure what your point is? that teachers should keep the same pension but earn £60k/annum? nearly triple the national average? It would get better quality teaching staff through the doo, granted..
Teachers' take home pay is (relatively) low. To compensate, they get a bigger pension.
Teachers' take home pay is (relatively) low. To compensate, they get a bigger pension.
is it? an AST (advanced skills teacher) can take home up to 64k, or 60k outside of london. with 65 days annual paid leave, that's already a pretty well compensated package. If you pro-rata 64k with 27 days leave (around average for a private sector job), that's a 77k package.
is it? an AST (advanced skills teacher) can take home up to 64k, or 60k outside of london. with 65 days annual paid leave, that's already a pretty well compensated package. If you pro-rata 64k with 27 days leave (around average for a private sector job), that's a 77k package.
The average teacher's salary is around £32K. They also spend a fair amount of their evenings marking and preparing lessons. Cherry picking to suit your argument looks a bit petty...
The average teacher's salary is around £32K. They also spend a fair amount of their evenings marking and preparing lessons. Cherry picking to suit your argument looks a bit petty...
if that's true, it suggests the average teacher's career is 6 years and they don't (on average) apply for any of the additional salery packages (such as AST, TLR, pay for excellent teachers, deputy/head teacher, etc etc).
It probably is the right figure if you bring part time teachers into play, and eliminate heads etc, but thats a bit of a distorted scale. Even so, if you pro-rata the holidays out, its nigh on 39k. I'd say that kinda salery doesn't need a compensatory pension. I'm not saying teachers are overpaid, I'm suggesting they probably don't need a pension package worth nearly double what a similar private sector employee would earn
My other half is a teacher, so I know how much time is spent marking/lesson planning. Most teachers average about 4 hours/day on lessons, so it seems spending 5 doing other activities would pretty much bring them up with the average private sector worker?