If you’re one of those people that appreciates mechanical objects for what they are, and the certain ‘something’ (I call it character or soul) that they possess, then a Spitfire is well up there with THE very best vehicles ever constructed by mankind. You either understand that or you don’t.

I am, and I do. I find both the Spitfire and the Vulcan to be wonderful examples of aeronautical engineering and design. But I also see things within the context of their purpose. In the case of the Spitfire, I think it is deservedly a symbol of the struggle and sacrifice made against tyranny and evil. When I see one, I give thought to those who flew in them and other warplanes, who all did their bit to help defend their nation. I have nothing but admiration and utmost respect for those that fought, and helped the war effort in whatever capacity.

With the Vulcan, however, I see it differently; it isn’t a symbol of hope and bravery, like the Spitfire. Regardless of it’s undoubted pedigree, it is little more than a symbol of Mankind’s inability to resolve it’s own conflicts. And when someone makes a glib comment like “400 kiloton “bucket of sunshine.””, then I find that incredibly insulting and disrespectful to all those who suffer from the ravages of war.

It’s a pity Mankind can’t focus efforts in more benevolent ways.

With the Vulcan, however, I see it differently; it isn’t a symbol of hope and bravery, like the Spitfire. Regardless of it’s undoubted pedigree, it is little more than a symbol of Mankind’s inability to resolve it’s own conflicts. And when someone makes a glib comment like “400 kiloton “bucket of sunshine.””, then I find that incredibly insulting and disrespectful to all those who suffer from the ravages of war.

It’s a pity Mankind can’t focus efforts in more benevolent ways.

You know, I think you might be right. Point well made.

It’s not an argument Elfin. You my friend are taking things out of context.

Someone puts a picture of an Avro Vulcan up – you put pictures of nuclear bomb victims up. The Vulcan never attacked anyone using nuclear weapons. You are taking things out of context. War is bad, we know this. Why do you need to bring a mountain bike forum down with your higher than mighty opinions?

Someone likes to see a Spitfire fly. That is all.

I don’t think I’m taking things ‘out of context’ at all. Derek Starship’s comments were, in my opinion, insulting and disrespectful to the victims of such ‘buckets of sunshine’. I think sentiments like his are sickening, quite frankly. It was he that chose to glorify the Vulcan as a weapon of war, not me. I chose to take a broader view of such things, that’s all. Yes, it’s an incredible ‘plane, but let’s not forget it’s purpose. To separate or disassociate the thing from it’s purpose is to ignore the reality of Mankind’s Inhumanity.

As for the accusation of bringing down a mountain biking forum’ with my ‘high and mighty opinions’; Am I not entitled to voice my opinions? I’ve at least attempted to explain them, and stand by them 100%. If this sits uneasy with some, then maybe my point of war being something that should not be glorified has been understood.

Anyway enough already. I’m sure Deadlydarcy will be along presently to explain his own views.

Look, someone said they like seeing a Spitfire when it goes past.

Why does it have to turn into a soapbox of right and wrong? You state the obvious that most of us know. Why not go on a political forum to air your view?

Person likes Spitfire.

Nuclear bombs bad. Nothing to do with person liking seeing a plane fly past.

Anyway enough already. I’m sure Deadlydarcy will be along presently to explain his own views.

Eh? Somebody call?

Now, I love a bit of engineering as much as the next guy. And undoubtedly, a Spitfire’s a grand looking thing indeed. However, for me, any machine of war will always be tainted with the purpose for which it was designed. To kill. To maim. To rain destruction on it’s victims. If you can ignore this, then fair dues, go ahead and ignore it and glibly comment on how a plane will deliver a 40 kiloton bucket of sunshine on its victims. Don’t you think that the bucket of sunshine will be arriving back at your door by return post anyway?

Mankind has designed beautiful machines and engineering. Personally, I prefer it when he designs things to bring people together – to cross borders. To shorten the distance between us. Which is why, for example, (even though I don’t treat its passing as some kind of bereavement) I can appreciate Concorde. I’m not going to attribute anything as imaginative as “soul” to some nuts and bolts and moulded aluminium and plastic though. A drawing of a sun coming up over a rickety house on a hill drawn by a three year old’s got more soul than a machine.

Man is capable of seemingly impossible achievements when he talks and communicates with his fellow man. But when he stops talking and picks up a gun or a plane or a missile or a tank to do his talking for him, he has failed. No matter how “beautifully” he has done it.

Why not go on a political forum to air your view?

That’s the beauty of STW Glitter – you just never know which way the discussion’s going to go. And another thing, you get to be controversial every so often. Like, I dunno, you tell me…some people even take the name of a convicted paedophile and complete arsewipe of a human being and turn it the other way round…edgy feckers that they are. They probably think that’s funny. I reckon any day now, someone might just try it.

However, for me, any machine of war will always be tainted with the purpose for which it was designed. To kill. To maim. To rain destruction on it’s victims. If you can ignore this, then fair dues

I can. I don’t think the Vulcan is all that, either.

Just looks like a flying bit of plywood to me. A Lancaster is far nicer plane to look at, but neither is a patch on a Spit.

But if we’re thinking about the war machine angle too, that makes the Spitfire even better, IMO, as per Elfin’s comments above.

I sometimes wish someone would nuke this forum and all on it, including myself. The world would be a much better place, no one could argue with that.

Why not go on a political forum to air your view?

Like you say, you’ve not been here long, have you? 😉

I think DD has summed things up more beautifully than I could have managed.

But let’s not forget; the Spitfire was a thing born of War. As is the Vulcan, the AK47, the Atomic Bomb. All fantastic feats of design, engineering and science.

Someone likes to see a Spitfire fly.

I do. Because they serve as a reminder of why we should always fight against that which seeks to destroy us, or take away our liberty.

Have a look at Redthunder’s thread. That’s not glorification, that’s about admiration for The Few.

P.S. That is my birth name.

It’s not the sight. It’s the sound of the Merlin engine, one of the most distinctive and emotive sounds in the world.

but let’s not forget it’s purpose.

Which was to bomb the basxxrds before they got us what’s the problem? or would you rather become crispy duck first?

or would you rather become crispy duck first?

I’d rather nobody had fought about things in the first place.

Spitfire is quite pretty for a prop plane but Concorde makes it and almost everything else look like a crap kids drawing.

<pedant>

the Spitfire was not a thing born of war, it was born of the threat of impending war. It first flew in 1936, 3 years before Hitler’s troops invaded Poland, 2 years before they “annexed” Austria, Czechoslovakia & the Rhineland.

If it had been born out of the actuality of war, it would have probably been 2 years too late to do any good. The Hurricane on its own, while it accounted for the majority of shot-down German aircraft, might not have been enough to prevent the Luftwaffe gaining the air superiority needed for Operation Sealion to go ahead.

</pedant>

Merlin engine + Spitfire = WIN End of thread 😉

Personally, I prefer it when he designs things to bring people together – to cross borders

Fair enough, but it’s a fact that most machines designed to fight have an intrinsic beauty that more mundane planes or whatever lack, in the same way that a Tiger Shark or a Peregrine Falcon have a sleekless lacking in a pigeon or a reef fish. They’re predators, as are the Spitfire, P51 Mustang, Bf109 Gustav, Typhoon, FW190, etc. Fitness for purpose, and that purpose was to destroy the opposition as quickly as possible to achieve the required objective, whatever it was. They’re beautiful things, and beautiful things stir my soul.

I can see beauty in most living things…even ton. From the pigeon to the falcon. I can appreciate why beautiful machines stir the soul of some, but machines don’t really do it for me. A beautiful bridge gets near sometimes. But machines just don’t go deep enough.

even ton

Steady. 😯

No need to go that far…

Flippin’ ‘eck.

The “bucket of sunshine” quote is from a book I am currently reading. Vulcan 607. What happened in Japan on the 6th and 9th of August 1945 was abhorrent. War IS abhorrent.

But I do believe the Vulcan that Elfinsafety seems to vilify potentially saved him and us from not being here.

The Vulcan – and the rest of the V-Force were amazing feats of aviation engineering and the pilots and supporting crew were amazing people.

C’est tout.

The “bucket of sunshine” quote is from a book I am currently reading.

In which case I partially apologise. But I hope that you can consider my views on this. Your comment did seem quite glib and insensitive. I hope you can appreciate this. And your comment abut the ‘fameproof shirt’ wasn’t appropriate either, imo.

But I do believe the Vulcan that Elfinsafety seems to vilify potentially saved him and us from not being here.

I do hope your going to produce some evidence to support this claim.

😯

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible events, but nowhere near as unpleasant as what the Japanese unleashed on mainland China.

It saved the lives of tens of thousands Allied troops who did not die as a result of having to invade Japan. That makes it worthwhile. It probably also saved 100s of thousands of Japanese lives as well. Unpleasant but true.

I do hope your going to produce some evidence to support this claim.

we’re all still here, aren’t we? Would we have been if Britain had not had an independent nuclear deterrent? That’s another issue. Part of the “beauty” of the V-bomber force is that simply by being there, there was never any need to use them in anger

The whole theory of Mutually Assured Destruction seems to have worked, so far at least.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible events, but nowhere near as unpleasant as what the Japanese unleashed on mainland China.

They were every bit as ‘unpleasant’, just on a much smaller scale, ultimately.

It saved the lives of tens of thousands Allied troops who did not die as a result of having to invade Japan. That makes it worthwhile. It probably also saved 100s of thousands of Japanese lives as well. Unpleasant but true.

Popular US propagada designed to make us feel better about the fact that the USA unleashed two nuclear weapons on hundreds of thousands of innocent people. The Japanese weren’t far off surrender at that point anyway. Dropping the Bomb was about displaying US military might, and establishing the USA as a global superpower.

As for Vulcan; it was pretty much redundant as soon as it saw service, and ended up in a lesser role. Because ICBMs made it pretty useless really.

Anyways up, I’ve said me bit, so I’m done.

I’ve not read all this thread …… has anyone mentioned the Junkers Stukas ?

I reckon they were well ace, especially with their wailing sirens.

Don’t you start Ernie. Try to contribute in a positive, constructive manner. Don’t come one here trying to cause fights like you normally do.

The Japanese weren’t far off surrender at that point anyway.

The Japanese were nowhere near surrender. Try reading Nemesis by Max Hastings. Although pushed back to the Japanese homeland the Japanese were not seriously considering surrender so an invasion was imminent which, going by the invasion of Okinawa, would have cost more lives than the nuclear strikes. It may not suit your pacifist/anti-American leanings Elfin but history is not on your side on this one.

so an invasion was imminent

In case you haven’t noticed, Japan is an island. Which can easily be surrounded. And cut off from any supply lines. Their military force was pretty much spent. Meaning it would’ve caved in eventually, probably with far less loss of life.

It may not suit your warmongering pro-American leanings, but geography isn’t on your side in this one. 😀

Among those who opposed the bombings were, among others, also military and political US-leaders like general Dwight Eisenhower, admiral William D. Leahy, (Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman), Herbert Hoover (US-president 1929–1933), and general Douglas MacArthur.[112] They argue that it was simply an extension of the already fierce conventional bombing campaign[113] and this together with the sea blockade and the collapse of Germany (with its implications regarding redeployment) would also have led to a Japanese surrender, therefore, the atomic bombings were militarily unnecessary,[12] inherently immoral, an experiment on human beings, a demonstration of power to the rest of the world, especially the Soviet Union, setting a terrible example and harming the reputation of the United States in the rest of the world, describing the outcome of such a bombing would have been sufficient to end the war, it was a war crime, or a form of state terrorism.[114]
J. Samuel Walker, chief historian of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, summarized: “The consensus among scholars is that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan and to end the war within a relatively short time. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisers knew it.” [115]

Don’t come one here trying to cause fights…….

WTF ? 😕

I happen to think that Stukas were well cool……what’s wrong with that ? Is it because they were Luftwaffe planes ?

What are you, a racist ?

No you’re a racist.

Well obviously you are with your petty “it has to be a British plane” attitude.

You lot must be amazing riders, the fervour and passion you are devoting to this thread is incredible and seeing as its on an mtb forum I am assuming that you do extend these kind of energies to actually riding bikes and not just having ridiculous arguments with people you probably dont even know about events which none of you will ever influence. You do ride bikes don’t you?

I love Spitfires they are ace, but only with super tacky high rollers.

Blockade – what, like the one the Germans tried on the British Isles?

Blimey Elfin, where were you when the Allies needed you?

I suppose the thousands of Allied PoWs in Japan would have survived this blockade too?

Bollocks to Japan. I’m happy that several members of my family were able to come back in one piece because the Japanese surrendered when they did.

Sometimes feel the same if I see a Cruise missile flying by…the sheer accuracy…you just gotta admire it.

Actually yes, they’re amazing things. Love the engineering in them.

Don’t you start Ernie. Try to contribute in a positive, constructive manner. Don’t come one here trying to cause fights like you normally do.

Ah, Mr Pot, we’ve been expecting you, meet Mr Kettle

Marzocchi 888’s are nice.

*Better not say I like Bombers……*

War = bad, warplanes = good – simple equations. Vulcans were produced just up the road and I used to love seeing them flying over when I was growing up. I also remember the space shuttle piggybacking on top of a commercial airliner flying over school, anyone remember that? Now that was cool!

Yeah, if you were the type of human whose “soul” is “stirred” by machines, I guess the space shuttle could be considered cool. Your simple equations are bollocks though. How did you derive them?

derived by not over-analyzing like most people on here seem to? War = bad. pretty self explanatory that one. i’m sure most war could’ve been avoided if people were more tolerant of each other.

Warplanes are just planes = drop the ‘war’ bit and it’s just an amazing feat of engineering. even if war had never existed i’d imagine we’d still have planes like that in some form or another, it’s human nature to build things that go like stink (not having missiles attached of course)

my soul does get stirred by machinery, same way i love classic cars, fast cars, motorbikes, megamachines on the discovery channel, tinkering with stuff in the garage to see why it’s the way it is….but what do i know, i’m just a simpleton 😉