Why on earth aren’t the nurses and doctors putting this forward to support their cause?

The Tories, you know you can always trust them…….to go against their word. Grrrrrrr……%!”£&$*+$£”

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/informative-read-about-nhs-reforms

It’s just that they are not cutting the NHS, or reducing funding, simply trying to make it more efficient.

It’s a mess at the moment and a huge waste of money, maybe the nurses should concentrate more on nursing and less on managing.

As for the Unions, then maybe they need to reign their neck in a bit and concentrate more on what they are good at and less on trying to tell an elected government how to run the country/NHS.

Oh but we are going on about it.

Andrew Lansley has the neck on him to claim that we are opposing NHS reforms because we are hacked off with the Conservatives about our pay and pensions.

I opposed the beginnings of these reforms under NooLab, and I continue to oppose the ongoing NHS reforms because I have a professional duty of care to raise concerns. My concerns in this case are about:

1. The care of vulnerable people (many of whom are poorly educated, do not vote and therefore have no voice and aore of less concern come re-election time).

2. The misuse of public money and its diversion into the pockets of shareholders rather than the wellbeing of the country’s most vulnerable.

I think both of these are huge issues with the doors that will be opened by the current plans for reform, and indeed much of the changes that were started by the last government.

Lansley blaming this on some sort of pension reform backlash is just cheap and cowardly. 👿

It’s just that they are not cutting the NHS, or reducing funding, simply trying to make it more efficient.

It’s a mess at the moment and a huge waste of money, maybe the nurses should concentrate more on nursing and less on managing.

What a load of ill-informed poppycock.

Go back to reading your Daily Express (daily Mail is too high brow for you)

The argument is (and what will be being reffered to in that banner) that they are not cutting front line services. Some thing that isn’t really being done directly.

Much of the saving is ‘supposed’ to be coming out of the back office support, where a few million are being saved.

and another thing:

tell an elected government

Hardly! And on false promises like the one above.

Grrrrrrrrrrrr……..

simply trying to make it more efficient

Tell me, then, exactly how these reforms are going to make care more efficient.

I’m all ears.

Sancho, they aren’t an elcted government and are acting beyond the parameter’s set out in either party’s electoral manifestos.

The coalition is cutting funding and also enabling more and more opportuities where it is spent on profit-making companies. (I blame Labour for this too). I predict that there will be a short honeymoon where this will appear to be better value for money before the horse has bolted and whatever government wins the next election will be left holding the stable door.

Still, at least we can rely on the private sector to pick up the pieces…

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/4133-scottish-labour-mps-slammed-after-supporting-privatisation-in-nhs

It’s just that they are not cutting the NHS, or reducing funding, simply trying to make it more efficient.

It’s a mess at the moment and a huge waste of money, maybe the nurses should concentrate more on nursing and less on managing.

As for the Unions, then maybe they need to reign their neck in a bit and concentrate more on what they are good at and less on trying to tell an elected government how to run the country/NHS.

And this dribble is courtesy of? What a load of sh*t.

Having a partner who’s a radiographer I get to hear about the state of the NHS, and how it’s all being privatized through the back door. Then the government get ‘joe public’ to turn against their nurses and doctors with the whole public vs private sector debate.

My partner was on a ward the other day that only had 2 nurses on it. They were run ragged, demoralised and tired – the argument on efficiency is bollocks.

lot of gnashing of teeth on this bike forum, but not much else.

I read neither publication, I prefer online media and the I or the Guardian.

But the NHS funding hasnt been cut, and they are trying to improve the efficiency of the NHS.

And Nurses do need to concentrate more on the profession of nursing and less on managing.

“Tell me, then, exactly how these reforms are going to make care more efficient.”

Because GP’s will control the budget and they know what their patients want, and where they want it. In fact the Tory sound bite will be that they have saved £x million pounds aboloshing PCT’s and that Clinical Commissioning Groups are costing 1/10 (or whatever ratio) less than PCT’s so they have suceeded.

What they wont say is that GP’s are crapping themselves about their new found responsibilities, and that the cost ‘saved’ are just transferred out to other organisations.

“And Nurses do need to concentrate more on the profession of nursing and less on managing.”

I think many nurses would love to do more managing and less nursing to give them 5 minutes to sit down!

[/quote]I read neither publication, I prefer online media and the I or the Guardian.

And that proves you can still spout crap regardless of what you read.

Sancho, this seams to be a classic case of bad management and confusion between efficiency and effectiveness.
As a country, we need a more effective NHS to look after the health of the people.
Aiming for a more “efficient” NHS implies you are looking to create time/cost savings, to take out of the health system. Is this as profits for the management subcontractors? Fair enough, there will be winners, but it does not improve the NHS for the future. We have a growing population with growing needs for this service, so effectively it will be reduced.

lot of gnashing of teeth on this bike forum, but not much else.

Hardly – some of us actually work on the shopfloor, and the true nature/direction/purpose of these reforms is bleedin’ obvious.

Now, if you prefer online media, you’ll have no problem reading this:

NHS reform FAQ

The NHS is a result of the decades of constant changes, cutting, restructuring performed by various governments. There needs to be one game plan for the future of the NHS that ALL parties agree to and put it in place.

IMO the NHS should be something we invest more in, rather than keep hacking and chopping at it. I think there’s a large % of this population who take it for granted, and are too blinkered to see a future without it.

Prezet, I merely have a different view point, not spouting crap.

I have a partner who is a remarkable doctor, in fact one of the best in her field.

However, the NHS is a mess, is badly run and is wasting money all over the place.

This is through bad management.
and an unclear modern set of parameters for the NHS.
The Tories are trying to resolve a lot of this.
and doctors are not crapping themselves about the changes, most have set about adopting the changes already.

Read that Blog by the way, and its not exactly stating facts is it, merely opinioins just as this forum is.

The Tories are trying to resolve a lot of this

Again, tell me how the reforms are going to improve things.

In the context of services provided by, say, a major teaching hospital – explain to me how there will be better outcomes.

The NHS is not as well run as it might be – the answer – more and better managers!

Not additional layers of bureaucracy and a reorganisation that will cost money. Its not about improving efficiency its about preparing the NHS for wholesale privatisation. Check the links between tories and private healthcare companies

Tell the various doctors organisations that are opposing the changes that they are adopting them already – only under duress.

teh changes are universally opposed by all the representative organisations.

interesting reading

http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d7973

Unfortunately the governments strategy of confusion and distraction (plus turning the public against healthcare workers) seems to be working on Sancho.

We all recognise the NHS is not perfect and we must strive to improve. But if you think fragmenting it and taking the emphasis away from care and turning it into profit will help then you are sadly wrong. Everyone is set to loose out including rich and poor. Even if you can afford private cover, an insurance company will not insure you against an existing condition (you can only insure against risk) and so anyone with a chronic condition will remain within whatever is left of the now poorly funded NHS.

The only people that will win are the friends of the Tory party who now own the healthcare providers.

The coalition is cutting funding

Really?

Can anyone tell me the NHS Budget figures for the life of this parliament please?

How much has the NHS budget gone down by?

and doctors are not crapping themselves about the changes

Hence the professional associations coming out in full support of the…..oh, hang on….

Z-11:

from bbc article:

“…the drive to make £20bn of savings by 2015 – the equivalent of 4% of the budget a year.”

The one thing I am not is against anyone working in the NHS.
I suffer from a Kidney disease that has me in hospital every couple of weeks, I think the people in the NHS are great.
But I think a lot of how it operates, and the care given is shite and would benefit greatly from a complete and utter overhaul.

not just the tory plans but a complete top to bottom change to bring it up to date.

Talking to nurses and doctors regularly, they all want it to change from what it is at the moment.

Talking to nurses and doctors regularly, they all want it to change from what it is at the moment.

True, but I dare say they want more investment and money to fund services rather than less

headfirst – Member
Z-11:

from bbc article:

“…the drive to make £20bn of savings by 2015 – the equivalent of 4% of the budget a year.”That’s not the same as a cut.

one more point, from the people I speak to who work in the NHS, they tend not to agree with the union stand points and feel a lot of what is being said is political crap.

Its not so much cutting funding, as funneling the cash away from front-line care and into their mates pockets.

They want to separate out commissioning and supply of ‘services’. The main upshot of this will be that once you do that, EU competition law then applies.

So a GP commissioning a treatment will legally have to put that treatment to tender. Thus opening the NHS up to private healthcare companies. Who will then cherry-pick the profitable treatments, while leaving the NHS with everything else

Thats a pretty good summary of the Tory reforms from what I’ve read. Did I miss anything?

* Remember that? The EU? The one the Tories claim to despise?

Z-11, much funding is effectively frozen, on top of the required efficiency savings.

That’s not even the main issue, IMO – the main issue being the neeedless fragmentation of services, under the disingenuous cover of ‘competition’ (which will have knock-on effects in acute care). Besides, much of what is envisaged by these reforms doesn’t even make sense from an ‘austerity’ point of view!

Edit: I don’t have time to stay and argue about this, but rest assured: these reforms are a potentially major clusterfug. If Lansley thought the breast implants saga was a headache, he ain’t seen nothing yet!

The NHS is not as well run as it might be – the answer – more and better managers!

Urm, I’m sure that’s been done… leading to more chiefs than indians.

However, the NHS is a mess, is badly run and is wasting money all over the place.

I will agree that in some areas the NHS loses money. Especially where locum’s are concerned – paid enormous day rates. Essentially a contractor for the NHS.

I’m sure I heard on the news (I may be wrong), that in the future hospitals will get part of their funding from providing their facilities to the private sector. How the hell is that going to benefit the NHS? Hospitals will be forced to put private patients first to ensure they get their budget.

That’s not the same as a cut.

It’s a cut in planned spending, which surely is it a cut.

an elected government how to run the country

they were never elected in, they had chum up lie to Clegg and his cronies so they could ruin run the country

The NHS is operating with the private sector far more already than people realise.
Surgeons spend a load of their time doing private ops in NHS theatres, when I had my eyes lasered, the surgeon had a private clinic in St James’s and spent four days a week doing private clinic and one day a week doing NHS.

As for legally having to tender due to EU reg thats not factually true.
That is a load of crap spouted by a lot of government bodies and councils who dont understand the law on tendering.

Ive encountered it before with the Police and the council.

“The NHS is operating with the private sector far more already than people realise.
Surgeons spend a load of their time doing private ops in NHS theatres, when I had my eyes lasered, the surgeon had a private clinic in St James’s and spent four days a week doing private clinic and one day a week doing NHS.”

Not quite sure what you mean by that, but quite a few surgeons have private practice outside of the NHS, whats wrong with that, it doesnt effect the NHS in any way. I guess some trust may have spare theatre capacity to rent out to private co’s but I didnt know that it happened will ask tonight. I certainly know that it works the other way though that the NHS use private hospitals to do ops in periods of high demand, or indeed when it can be cheaper than the local acute provider.

The NHS is a big beast and yes everyone could see ways to make it more efficient, but because it is such a big beast its very difficult to acheive that. Yes it needs better managers, I’m not sure it needs more, just better ones.

There comes a point with the NHS where spending has to stop. It costs more to provide healthcare now than it did previously ie people live longer, theres more of us, drug costs, people want more. At some point the government either has to take more in taxes, or reduce spending else where, or reduces the services offered via the NHS (make cuts)

The NHS is beyond reform. Too many powerful interests colliding. No ambitious politician would want a job that is impossible to succeed in. The most important players have a vested interest in the status quo and will resist change.

So the system will muddle through. Pockets of excellence surrounded by an unmanageable super structure. Staff will face endless tinkering and marginal change most of which will be counter productive.

As for patients…..

Let’s face it, the NHS is a big lumbering monolith that has out-lived it’s design. And it needs a radical overhall. Not a facelift, a re-branding or any other general rubbish often spouted by the politicos, but serious change. As has been mentioned, the costs of healthcare have escalated dramatically, and the rate of inflation for healthcare products far outstrips that of the CPI or RPI. The tax-payer (that’s you) can no longer afford it. Unfortunately any politicican that stands up and says that the NHS needs radical change will have to kiss good-bye to their career due to the collective ignorance of the general voting public.

I have to laugh when people comment about companies making a profit out of healthcare. Where do you think your penicillin comes from? Clue; it ain’t grown by a socialist co-operative.

(Rant over…)

glad its all of us out of touch and not you…thanks for the heads up

JY – ‘evening! How’s the gay wedding headache coming along?

Well it seems people need reminding occasionally!!

I had a row with “change consultant” when I was at B School back in the 1990s. She came in to tell us about how they had successfully introduced change into the NHS. She was quite taken aback by the strength of the questioning and criticism that she faced. I told her then that she had not introduced change, merely caused chaos at the fringes and that in 10 years time, the same tired conversation and debate would still be taking place. Smug **** walked away with her fees though!

Plus ca change….

Not quite sure what you mean by that, but quite a few surgeons have private practice outside of the NHS, whats wrong with that, it doesnt effect the NHS in any way.

And remind me, their incentive is for the service in the NHS to be worse/the same/or better than their private practice?