I tend to agree with binners.

Don’t imagine for a second that your refusal to participate in the current process is magically going to lead to a better alternative.

Your options really are (a) make the best of the current system, (b) passively accept a system in which your vote gets steadily less interesting to those who run the country or (c) take real and serious risks struggling to force the change that you want, when you’ve worked out what that is.

Don’t imagine for a second that your refusal to participate in the current process is magically going to lead to a better alternative.

No, but IF we had a “none of the above” option and then IF enough voters chose to use it then I don’t think that could be ignored.

JonEdwards – Member

I’d be much happier to vote if there was a “none of the above” option too.

pretend, that the green party is more or less the same thing.

voting green almost certainly won’t help them win, but, here’s the great bit, every vote against ‘not BNP/UKIP’ means a greater chance of them losing their electoral deposit.

(if they don’t get 5% of the vote, they lose their £500(?) deposit)

IF we had a “none of the above” option and then IF enough voters chose to use it then I don’t think that could be ignored.

What would you expect to see happen? There isn’t some sort of central procurement office designing and creating political parties that all the “none of the aboves” might like.

Whatever government there was would take its wafer thin mandate, make sure its riot police had plenty of water cannons and carry on as normal.

No, but IF we had a “none of the above” option and then IF enough voters chose to use it then I don’t think that could be ignored.

Wish in one hand, spit in the other – see which hand fills up first.

What would you expect to see happen? There isn’t some sort of central procurement office designing and creating political parties that all the “none of the aboves” might like.

I would hope that it would spark widespread public debate about the system of voting/government (rather than just debate about what colour tie our overlords should be wearing 😉 ) which would encourage people much cleverer than me to come up with ways of changing it for the better.

…in fairness I think the coalition is the most representative government we’ve had in a long time in relation to how many people voted for the LibDems and Tories combined.

Speaking of which, just trying to find an article published fairly recently about what the LibDems have acheived. It’s a surprising amount – enough to royally piss-off the Tories anyway. From that point of view I think the above statement has merit.

In the meantime: http://www.whatthehellhavethelibdemsdone.com

I quite like your idea TheFlyingOx but how would the scores be assigned? Would we have to sit an exam or an interview or can I score everyone at random?

Some kind of complex speech-recognition software/multiple choice touchscreen at the voting booth? The technology is there, but “the powers that be” are withholding it, just to keep the little people in their place, maaaaaaaaann.

Dear god, some of these replies make for depressing reading.

Is it any wonder we’ve ended up with the unholy unrepresentative mess we’ve got? Which then turns people away from it even further as they take less account of public opinion. And why should they? If it’ll make bugger all difference as they won’t vote anyway. so why even consider them, eh?

Unless some people wake up and start seeing that democracy requires some engagement, and is really a civil obligation, then the corporate takeover of national government will continue unchecked

Heres an idea. Instead of thinking about how government policy effects you, why not look at it from the point of view of the least fortunate members of society? The poor, the disabled, the unemployed, and ask yourself how government policy is effecting them? Then look at the other end of the spectrum, at the super-rich, and ask how the same policies are effecting them? Did you notice the announcement that they’re doubling the already substantial taxpayer subsidy for grouse moors this week? At the same time as they say that the unemployed will have to do ‘voluntary’ work from now on?

Maybe we need a northern based, pasty, pie and brown beer fuelled revolution. Cummon sort it out comrade

It was my Grandad who told me that even if I did not actually vote for anyone I should at least go and spoil my paper.

There are countless people dying around the world fighting for the right to vote and all we do is sit at home and moan about how we can’t be arsed voting for any of them.

The other issue (as Doncaster found out to their cost in the Mayoral vote) is that low turn-outs favour the fringe parties / lunatics getting a foot in the door.

Get out there and vote or at least practice your democratic right to spoil your paper.

This conversation had a familair ring to it. Here’s one of my posts from about 3 years ago. Still feel the same way

Not voting is the affront to democracy. It should be compulsory to vote. Enough people die around the world trying to get the right and a lot of people cant be @rsed.
However if it was compulsory then it should be easy and accessible to do so for everyone and there always should be ‘I am not voting for any of them’ choice on the paper.

I think a lot of the politicians would change their attitude if they got 100% turnout and only 40% bothered to choose someone. I think they would be scrambling around for that missed market share

Don’t imagine for a second that your refusal to participate in the current process is magically going to lead to a better alternative.

The people you can pretty much guarantee turning up are the extermeists, the UKIP’ers, BNP’ers, etc. So you not turning up to vote means more power to the nutters, meaning your refusal to participate in the current process is magically going to lead to a far worse alternative. A bit like how the whole political structure in Britain seems to have moved to the right.
Which is great, because as things get worse, you can proudly proclaim that none of them are worth voting for and watch as things get worse and Farage starts to look like the voice of reason.

So serious question. – How do go about getting the issue of a ‘none of the above’ box discussed at ‘higher levels’ ?

All politicians are cheating, self serving short termist scum.

I’d add the words ‘lying’ & ‘untrustworthy’ to that statement.

FWIW, UKIP did ok round these parts last time & on listening to people at work they’ll probably do even better next time. 😐

Difficult one I admit. Given the nature of politicians I doubt they could bring themselves to consider that someone could turn up to vote and yet not vote for any of them. It would be too powerful a statement.
I guess there’s few more options these days given the prominence of social media.

As for going about it, I guess I am fine at the moment since I do have the best of a bad bunch to vote for at the moment. Otherwise I would be inclined to do something.

never voted but spent 15 years working the polling stations and vote counting in a previous existence.

It was my Grandad who told me that even if I did not actually vote for anyone I should at least go and spoil my paper.

Which achieves exactly nothing. Apart from wasting your own time. And that of the poor underapid person who sorts the votes.

The Sheaf View pub is very close to my polling station in Sheffield.
I vote in the evening and celebrate my franchise with a pint. Who wouldn’t?
I felt tempted to spoil my ballot paper for the police commissioner poll.

People voting Lib Dem or Green have influenced the policies of Labour and the Tories to an extent. That was how I always viewed my vote in a relatively safe Labour seat; voting LD was my way of saying “I think tuition fees and ID cards and bombing the shit out of Iraq isn’t great”.

Unfortunately, as we’re seeing, the rise of UKIP and the (soon-to-be) death of the LibDems is pushing Con/Lab further right.

So serious question. – How do go about getting the issue of a ‘none of the above’ box discussed at ‘higher levels’ ?

You could (in no particular order):

– write to your MP and say you think this is important
– show up at your MP’s constituency surgeries and talk to them about it
– use the online petition thingy to try to get enough signatures to trigger a debate on it (it’s probably been done already, by people unfamiliar with the very concept of grammar, but anyway)
– put an actual petition together amongst people you know, and present it to your MP
– find out whether any political party has the introduction of a “none of the above” option as policy, then join them. If they are active locally, help. If they are not, see whether you can organise for them in your area.
– if no such party proves to exist, or if none are active locally, join a party that is active locally and otherwise appeals. Do the work involved in getting this measure onto the policy agenda, or support others who are engaged in doing it.

I appreciate that much of this sounds like hard work. But if you really think that a change to the electoral system so that you can formally express your apathy by turning up at a school hall is something that is high on the agenda of those currently engaged in actually running the country you’d be mistaken. 😉

never voted but spent 15 years working the polling stations and vote counting in a previous existence.

It was my Grandad who told me that even if I did not actually vote for anyone I should at least go and spoil my paper.

Which achieves exactly nothing. Apart from wasting your own time. And that of the poor underapid person who sorts the votes.[/quote]

Spoilt ballots are counted, and (I believe) have to be shown to the candidates/agents to confirm they’re spoilt.

A national “spoil your ballot” campaign (I bet Russell Brand would front it) would/could send a message.

Apparently, most of the people saying they’ll vote UKIP in the Euro elections will be first time voters. I’m really hoping that they’ll not bother dragging themselves to the polling station.

Difficult one I admit. Given the nature of politicians I doubt they could bring themselves to consider that someone could turn up to vote and yet not vote for any of them. It would be too powerful a statement.
I guess there’s few more options these days given the prominence of social media.

The statement is already there to some extent. 60% of people don’t bother to vote already (and a larger percentage in things like the European elections).

The problem with none of the above is its a negative assertion – someone has to win to govern.

(I very nearly wrote “I’m really hoping that they’ll not bother dragging themselves their knuckles to the polling station.” but didn’t. I think I’m growing up.)

The constituency I lived in had been solid labour since the beginning of time. When Blair bombed Iraq it did not go down well with the large Muslim population and the larger, and vocal constituency of right-on lefties. At the next election it went LibDem with an 18% swing

Saying Democracy doesn’t work is just cobblers. It would work a lot better than it is at present if people weren’t so bloody lazy and apathetic

There are countless people dying around the world fighting for the right to vote and all we do is sit at home and moan about how we can’t be arsed voting for any of them.

This. +1

You could (in no particular order):

– write to your MP and say you think this is important
– show up at your MP’s constituency surgeries and talk to them about it
– use the online petition thingy to try to get enough signatures to trigger a debate on it (it’s probably been done already, by people unfamiliar with the very concept of grammar, but anyway)
– put an actual petition together amongst people you know, and present it to your MP
– find out whether any political party has the introduction of a “none of the above” option as policy, then join them. If they are active locally, help. If they are not, see whether you can organise for them in your area.
– if no such party proves to exist, or if none are active locally, join a party that is active locally and otherwise appeals. Do the work involved in getting this measure onto the policy agenda, or support others who are engaged in doing it.

I appreciate that much of this sounds like hard work. But if you really think that a change to the electoral system so that you can formally express your apathy by turning up at a school hall is something that is high on the agenda of those currently engaged in actually running the country you’d be mistaken.

Interestingly my previous MP was an up and coming front bench Tory. I took great delight in (politely) writing to him, as I’m sure his PA took great delight in replying with wordy, meaningless emails. Never actually met him, but I think that’s because he was too busy climbing the greasy pole to hold surgeries.

Current MP, despite being a Tory, is far more approachable if a little less ambitious. I contacted him about a cycling issue, and after replying to his response stating that it was essentially meaningless, I actually got an honest letter which gave a straight forward answer with reasons behind it. I disagreed, but very much appreciate the response.

Right I’m convinced again. I’ll carry on voting, god knows who for though as I doubt we have a green party rep round here!!

After hearing too many conversation like “Dad, which one should I vote for” it did depress me to be a polling officer 🙄

Faith was normally restored by some infirm old gent or lady hobbling down the street probably for the first time in days just to use their vote.

Firstly, UkIP may win quite big at the Euro elections, but they will get their asses handed to them on a plate next year at the national elections, just like in 2010. They have been around 20years and got pretty much nowhere.

Aside from being a single issue party, it demonstrates how difficult its going to be for any political party other than the three main parties to make an attempt to win the UK election.

This is because regardless of whether people trust Cons/Libs/Labs or not, they have form in political office. The problem with this is, the three parties “stage manage” who will become candidates for election as MP’s, and considering that the top echelons of all three parties pretty much come from the same social group/educational backgrounds, you can pretty much bet if they can’t find suitable local candidate for election, they will parachute one in.

So other than a major economic disaster, there ain’t going to be some new political party who will right all these wrongs riding to our rescue.

The change has to happen with these three parties, and we have to force them to change from within, protest votes at the EU elections won’t do that.

there ain’t going to be some new political party who will right all these wrongs riding to our rescue.

That is not necessarily true. The Labour party had almost no experience of national government when it first took power.

A party capable of fielding a mix of candidates with experience in local government, experience organising other things (unions, hospitals, housing associations, banks, a ship, whatever) and knowledge and understanding of matters of interest (economics, law, healthcare, finance, commerce, oil prospecting, warfare, whatever) ought to be able to cope credibly with campaigning.

UKIP is failing to give a credible account of itself in substantial part because everything about it is fantasy. The repudiated 2010 manifesto was gibberish by any possible standards – that has not mattered to a base with no political convictions other than the importance of not voting for a functional governing party. But there is no particular reason why the political programme of a genuinely broadly-based new political movement should not be coherent and capable of implementation.

That is not necessarily true. The Labour party had almost no experience of national government when it first took power.

But it still had to rely on an established party, the Liberals to do that, and all at a time when more people were being allowed to vote.

Labour weren’t a one trick protest vote pony, thats the difference.

What you want to be very scared of the UKIP voters in this European parliament going back to Conservatives come the general election.

Or worse, people who would never vote Cons because of past history but actually ‘believing’ the UKIP spin and feeling comfortable voting UKIP. I know a lot of Labour voters who don’t stand for anything near what the party represents, but would never vote Con ‘because of Thatcher’ or whatever. Could be some scary swings come polling day.

ohnohesback – Member
What do the war dead have to do with the right to vote? They didn’t willingly die for some notion of democracy, they were conscripted sacrifices for the greater gains of the political class that controlled them.

A lot of them volunteered, to protect our right to self governance, had they not we’d have been Governed by a German dominated administration of officials we’d have had no say in electing…… Er a bit like the EU has become 😕

jambalaya – Member
… why don’t you visit a war cemetery and take a look at all the people who are buried there. They died protecting your right to vote.

BigDummy – Member
I tend to agree with binners.

Don’t imagine for a second that your refusal to participate in the current process is magically going to lead to a better alternative

The evidence points to the opposite.

Every election since the War has produced a majority government from a minority vote, every government we’ve had has had more people opposed to it than for it.
The baton has been passed regularly between the two old rivals, but none has ever been voted in by a majority of the voters.

Until the last election, where we had the highest proportion so far of non-voting, yet we’ve ended up with our most representative government – with the number of seats for each of the 3 parties closest ever to their actual share of the vote. Hence the coalition.

Conservatives will tell you you’re wrong not to vote. Labour supporters will tell you you’re wrong not to vote. The system works for them.
But it’s non-voting that’s produced the most significant result we’ve had, and the most representative government.

Every election since the War has produced a majority government from a minority vote

Er, except the current one…..regardless what you think of coalitions this one does ( or at least did at the point of the election) have a majority mandate from the electorate. If you use the argument that the when you include all the voters whether they voted or not they still did not have a majority then you have just possibly answered the question “why should. I bother to vote?”

In a democracy you need to either vote for the candidate or party that’s is closest to your views or if you don’t want to do that you need to get off yer backside, state what you believe in and and stand for election. Failing that you need to shut up and stop moaning 🙂

Every election since the War has produced a majority government from a minority vote… Until the last election

Did you even read the second paragraph before barking up the wrong tree.

marcus – Member
So serious question. – How do go about getting the issue of a ‘none of the above’ box discussed at ‘higher levels’ ?

As has been said above, the ‘higher levels’ wouldn’t entertain it as it robs them of their well funded comfortable gravy train.

Social media, start with the populous, there’s more of us than the politico’s and try as they might, they can’t control the internet completely. How about a Face-ache page? It’s one of the possibilities I’ve been considering for the next general election, even if it starts with a spoil your ballot move.

Has to be said though, that any replacement system will still be occupied by those who seek to serve themselves first.

The evidence points to the opposite.

This is a rather odd argument. Seats by party as a proportion of national share of vote does not depend on turnout. It depends much more on geographical dispersal of those votes by constituency.

In any case, if you start claiming that the fewer the people voting the better represented everyone is you’re more-or-less conceding that the Great Reform Act of 1832 was the first in a terrible series of mistaken constitutional amendments which should be put right so that we can get truly representative democracy back…

A lot of them volunteered, to protect our right to self governance, had they not we’d have been Governed by a German dominated administration of officials we’d have had no say in electing…… Er a bit like the EU has become

Which is pretty much the same argument as this thread – either you engage in the politics, or you’ll get a result you don’t like. If the UK actually decided to get involved in the EU it could be just as important as Germany, or even more.

I have voted at every election I have been able to and will continue to do so. As said before, if you don’t vote then it’s a bit rich to spout off about anything political as it’s partly your fault.

If you don’t like any party then do some research and find a local candidate for whoever that interests you.

If all else fails, turn up to vote and spoil your paper. If you can’t be bothered to even do that then………..