Flame me for this if you want, but read all of it first.

I have for a long time had a difficult relationship with Remembrance Sunday and November 11th.

My family were conscious objectors during 39-45 (soup kitchen with BEF out after Dunkirk, and medical orderly in a few days after D-Day if you care) and miners in 14-18.

I reflect and remember the loss, but I feel uncomfortable about the national celebration of our brave boys that it seems to have become.

I remember words like “old soldiers of all nations, to walk as brothers, their battles behind them” and that reflects my views about accurately – but I seldom hear that now.

I was therefore surprised, touched, moved, I don’t know how rose to say it, by two stories over the last few days.

One wanted identification of the graves of some Muslim sailors who had served in the merchant navy and the joining together or Christian and Muslim clerics to remember them. We need more of that rememberance and unity these days, but that was merely a starter.

The second was on Look North. A 102 year old veteran remembering his friends killed by a German shell – sad but hardly earth shattering perhaps – but then breaking down in tears over a third man, a German whom he had killed.

That is armistice day, rememberance Sunday, to remember the dead of all sides.

Well done to that veteran. I doubt I’ll ever meet him. But if I do, the first pint is on me.

And BBC, if you’re listening, that should be the lead national piece on remembrance, not some parade in London, with politicians and general centre stage.

I’ve said my piece. I won’t comment again in this thread.

Thank you. Well said.

Yep, well put and I agree.

Yes and well said.
Non-partisan, non-political, non-religious event of commemoration where racial differences are irrelevant.
The attendance of politicians at events of commemoration and remembrance should be seen as them representing their constituents and also acting in a private capacity.
My world will stop for 2 minutes at 11am on Remembrance Sunday.

+1 OP.

Well put Op.
It seems to mean more the older I get.
Hearing a colleague play the last post on Friday had me more choked up than ever.
11am Sunday will see me trying to keep 20-30 Beaver Scouts from fidgeting too much.

No further comment

stop the remembrance porn and instead stop wars and the arms trade would be a more fitting tribute.

IGM – your OP was and still is valid. As for being flamed, only the bigots or trolls will go there.
Seosamh -‘remembrance porn’; that is ignorant and dismissive. Stopping wars and ending the arms trade will not change or diminish the significance of Armistice Day and Remembrance services. Any suggestions on how to stop wars and/or end the arms trade? No, didn’t think so.
There is another thread opened by Woppit which covers a multiplicity of views. You should post your suggestions there.

erm.. stopping making and selling weapons would be a massive start, until that happens, I shall treat remembrance with the contempt it deserves. The dead are dead and will remain so, does them little good to remember in such a sickly fashion, trying thinking about the people that will be affected by current and future wars.

OP – read anything about the war and no one really wanted to kill anyone else, they were doing what they were instructed to do – the same goes for both sides on the front line.

Always conflicted a bit by this. Think I sit roughly halfway between the OP and seosamh72.

It’s probably fitting to think of those (on all sides) who have lost their lives in conflict, but it shouldn’t be limited to just 2 minutes once every 12 months… If it was a more constant consideration then maybe a few less would lose their lives in the future?

On the other hand, many of those would not have lost their lives if it weren’t for petty political ambitions and (IMO) outdated notions of nationhood.

‘Only doing our duty’ just isn’t justification enough for wasted lives.

@seosamh; remembrance does not’ deserve contempt’; your comments demonstrate considerable ignorance.
Why don’t you attend your local remembrance service and publicly share your views.
Why don’t you become an anti-war, non violent pacifist?
So, on Saturday at 11am will you be scratching your arse, shanking one out or observing two minutes silence?
Anyone in your family affected by war and military campaigns?
What do they think of your dismissive and ignorant view?
You are welcome to your opinion but you are in a tiny minority in the UK.

Quite happily share my views with anyone face to face, I’m hardly going to rock up to a remembrance do and force my opinions on people though.

I am anti war, not completely pacifist mind you, I would fight back if attacked.

11am tomorrow, I’ll be celebrating life at my mates weans christening, not engaging in a public showing of morbidity.

Immediate family, not particularly, not really seeing the relevance, think one granda was a cook in the BA, the other was irish, so wasn’t involved. There’s some further involvement way back in different conflicts, again, not seeing the relevance of the question at all? Largely has heehaw to do with me.

We obviously have a different definition of ignorance. I don’t think the promotion of militarism is that lofty an aim, so not getting your point there.

Quite happy to be in that minority, I doubt it’s as tiny as you think it is though.

Seosamh – I don’t want to get into a protracted exchange about this. Your are entitled and welcome to your views: I acknowledge and respect that.
I don’t agree with your views.

My Dad died on Nov 11th so my personal emotions are totally meshed with Armistice Day.

I know what I will be doing and why I will be doing it:
– at 11am on 11th November this year -and every year
– on Remembrance Sunday every year.

I don’t think the promotion of militarism is that lofty an aim

Can’t speak for anyone else but that’s not why I go.

Back to the OP – great post, absolutely agree.

The words “Lest we forget” always seem to have a hollow ring to them for me. It’s all the “ordinary” people that do the fighting and dying that are encouraged not to forget not the scummy politicians like Tony Blair that send them off to get slaughtered for their own hubris and aggrandisement.

Anybody who thinks Remembrance Day is a glorification of war should’ve paid more attention at school.

Ignorance is not OK.

… for instance, it is not about the ‘promotion of militarism’.

I didn’t like the swagger at the Menin Gate. The shiney shoes looked proud – It was shiney shoes that didn’t value them when they were alive that turned my great uncle in a row of carved letters. The monument was good the marching about bit made me cross. Its not a glorious memorial but one to a display of enormous military and political incompetence.

Dorset_Knob – Member

… for instance, it is not about the ‘promotion of militarism’.

And yet…..that’s exactly what it is. You have to wonder about the subconscious effect that these displays have in elevating the status of soldiers and military culture in people’s minds. If I was an impressionable 14 year old watching that, who perhaps had some family members who had been in the military, it would surely be profound.

When else do countries stop for such massive and reverent displays for anything else?

Don’t get me wrong, countries should have armies and armies should defend that country if / when they are attacked but I think in the last 15-20 years this has become sensationalised/fetishised out of all proportion.

Perfectly illustrated by Cameron et al trying to celebrate the start of the First World War FFS! And Corbyn got criticized for pointing this out. (apologies if I have remebered this completely wrongly)

And yet…..that’s exactly what it is.

I think it might for some people but not for most and definitely not for me.

We probably need a separate thread for this discussion, but I think jimjam is right. Remembrance isn’t specifically about glorifying the military, but it does contribute to the fetishisation of the military which is not necessarily a positive thing.

See also misuse of the word ‘hero’.

Mods, can we split this off?

frankconway – Member

@seosamh; …Anyone in your family affected by war and military campaigns?
What do they think of your dismissive and ignorant view?

I’ve stood in the drizzle at enough Remembrances parades to have given this some thought.

There’s too many of my family in graves, and no graves all over the world. Many of you here will have lost relatives in the UK’s many wars, but the memory of the lost uncles and granduncles have faded in the mists of memory. The best Remembrance will be to trace who you lost and remember them privately.

As a WW2 child I grew up on the stories of those who survived, including my brother invalided out after Aden. I don’t recall any of them thinking they were fighting for freedom.

Many of them fought and died because they were compulsorily enslaved and fed into the mincing machine. That is not freedom.

The Establishment doesn’t really give a damn about the soldiers. It’s convenient if they die, but tough shit for them if they get maimed or long term injuries.

Yes we should do what we can to provide support for our ex-service personnel, but it should become a constitutional right for ex-service personnel to receive whatever support they need for the rest of their lives, not to rely on charities.

Remembrance has become an obscenity designed to enhance the prestige of the prime actors in the ceremonies.

Seosamh is right.

Any suggestions on how to stop wars and/or end the arms trade? No, didn’t think so.

How about banning arms fairs from the UK? That would be a small but significant start.

Then we could carry on by recognising which companies, individuals and politicians are involved in the arms trade and stop them. (Especially the latter, the ones who are happy to send troops to war.)

On the OP.

That veteran will never have been the same person again. He was put in a situation where he was expected to kill the enemy. But really one human being was asked to kill another on behalf of a cause. God knows how I’d react if I killed someone in battle, but I can’t help but feel that it would haunt me. Did he have a wife? A girlfriend? Siblings? Children? What was he before the war? Could have been in the same trade etc etc etc.

People talk about life changing moments. 😥

War represents failure, not triumph. Look at the films of VE Day celebrations. Can you see anyone raising their fists and saying “we really gave it to those Germans”? No, you can just see pure relief. It’s over. We made it out alive.

Attempts to tie Remembrance Sunday to patriotism should be called out for what they are.

With seosamh on this one. Seems to me that the pomp and ceremony that goes into remembrance activities is not too dissimilar to the ‘thoughts and prayers’ on offer in America whenever some nutter shoots up a school. We (well, most of us) rightly deride the Americans for their dogmatic ignorance of the solution to gun violence, but then go holding parades and ceremonies to glorify those whose lives were wasted, in mostly pointless wars and military adventures which were more about gaining power and wealth than defending ourselves from aggressors. If we have to have remembrance ceremonies, then let them be ceremonies of repentance for our failure to learn the lessons of the past and the continuing waste of life. To see the likes of the Royal family and politicians who have sent servicemen and women to their deaths go through this charade sickens me somewhat.

Ok I lied.

I am going to comment again.

I have a lot of sympathy with seosamh on this. Epicyclo probably said it even better.

I absolutely support an old soldier remembering his mates and also those he killed.

I support a somber reflection by politicians and generals on the chaos and grief they can unleash.

But I support it as individuals, as reflection, as something personal.

What little thing can I do so that parents, spouses, children don’t have to bury their loved ones too soon. Or accept their death, or maiming, sans burial.

I’ll be on my bike at 11 tomorrow. On the road. I do a lot of thinking while road riding.

My remembrance will be real. But other than this thread it won’t be public.

And that guy remembering his two mates and the guy he killed, and making no distinction between them – well I don’t know if he’s s hero, I bet he’d say he isn’t, but that’s what remembrance should be about. I don’t know if the video clip is out there, but please search for it – you will hate it and love it equally.

Old soldiers, of all nations, there battles behind them, walking as brothers.

This to me sums up everything that is wrong concerning this topic.

I agree KM, remembrance should be in my opinion a vehicle for change, for a chance to realise the futility of war.

This is written on my Great Grandfathers First World War headstone, he is buried in Rouen.

“With a cheery smile, and a wave of the hand,
He has wandered into an unknown land”

To me it has so many meanings, but it sums up that actually these people that died did really wander in to an unknown land, they did not realise the ravages of war and the total destruction it causes for everyone at all levels.

With remembrance, young men and women do not have to ‘wander in to an unknown land’ as we remember and learn from previous wars… it is not good!

For some reason the picture I posted was deleted. It was a photo of a couple of young children holding oversized poppies on a stick like toys wearing t shirts with the ‘future soldier’ slogan on them. These t shirts are/were official RBL merchandise.

km79.. still there

, that should be the lead national piece on remembrance, not some parade in London, with politicians and general centre stage.

IGM, watching the Beeb this morning, seems that they heard you – stage very different to the one you feared.

I were thinking the main point of your statement to remember all yesterday.

Shouldn’t poppys be made for all fallen and to be recognised as such to create some form of unity as we become an increasingly merging world community.

Trekster – Member

km79.. still there So it is, doesn’t show up on my phone for some reason but does on my PC.

I quite like fact that our village Remembrance service is led by our German born vicar – times have changed.

I also like the fact that local kids read out the names of those lost – brings it home to you. Especially the 66 names from the nearby colliery who all died in WW1