I had an ‘experience’ involving HM Constabulary tonight on the way home on my bike from Trafalgar Square. There has been a big police presence at major junctions this week, following the highly publicised deaths of 6 London cyclists in only 9 days. They are (rightly) stopping those cyclists that are jumping red lights, riding with no lights at night and otherwise behaving like idiots. I would actually let them self-select to be removed from the gene pool, but I also object to them being a drain on the NHS. I attribute 20 years of incident-free bike commuting to understanding the risks, using the road assertively but considerately and being lit like a bleedin’ Xmas tree.

I rode carefully down the outside of a long line of stationary traffic leading up to a red light. When I got to the front, I saw that the advanced stop box (the green paint in the road the Boris has determined is the safe place for cyclists to wait) is filled to the brim with white van. This is not unusual, so I tuck my bike in front of the van, ie in front of the green box but well behind the red light. There’s nowhere else to go, is there. ‘Oi, you!’ shouts Mr Plod, who had been hiding behind some street furniture ‘over ‘ere NOW!’.
He proceeds to tell me I’ve incurred a £50 fine for stopping in front of the advanced stop line. Huh? OK, he says. it’s just a warning this time. He has waited until the cyclist box is full of van and then tells me I’m in the wrong? I politely tell him that I fully support the attempt to educate road users to be more considerate and take fewer risks. I then I make the mistake of asking why he hadn’t pulled over the van driver to have a word (£100 fine BTW), and where was I supposed to go with the van blocking the cyclists’ box anyway? LOGIC/COPPER does not compute and his response is to ask if I ‘really want that £50 fine’.
Suddenly I feel an affinity to Andrew Mitchell and Plebgate.

Sounds a little like this case which the CPS dropped today 🙂

http://road.cc/content/news/99735-cps-drops-case-against-cyclist-who-jumped%E2%80%99-red-light-his-own-safety

read the thread about the met targets and the the comments about the cps dropping the case..

1+1 = targeting cyclists for any infringement and not actually giving a **** about safety.

Should also mention you say you went up the outside, you do now that it is an offence to enter the ASL zone by any route other than than feeder lane? It is also an offence to cross a solid white line between the feeder lane and the ASL.

I know it sounds stupid and would never happen, but have a good look at some feeder and ASL combo’s and you will see that the feeder lane markings don’t actually break on the right hand side to let you enter the area, so as the line is solid, you can’t cross it.

I appear to always enter the only ASL on my commute illegally then!

Cars don’t seem to mind though, and I’ve never seen a copper there yet.

Glad the CPS dropped that case, though still wary about breaking the law yourself to prove a point to the driver – two wrongs and all that?

Strange how motorists think that by stopping in the ASL box the lights are going to change quicker.

Should also mention you say you went up the outside, you do now that it is an offence to enter the ASL zone by any route other than than feeder lane? It is also an offence to cross a solid white line between the feeder lane and the ASL.

According to Carlton Reid etc on Twitter, there’s some uncertainty about the law around that.

Bad attitude. Shame on this particular policeman, you should not have to put up with that- or this policy of ‘disciplining’ legitimate riders.

Maybe possible to express this formally? Report a complaint. He can be identified by his PC number?

LOGIC/COPPER does not compute and his response is to ask if I ‘really want that £50 fine’.

Yes be careful: going round Waterloo Bridge roundabout a police 4 x 4 pulled out in front of me (summer & daylight). I braked & veered round the front of the vehicle. Indicated to the driver he should watch where he’s going. Off go the blues & twos & I get pulled over: they argue they were fully aware of my presence on the roundabout . I argue if I hadn’t braked I’d have t-boned the 4 x 4. I then realise I’m arguing with 2 coppers, saying they were driving without due care and attention. I apologise, say it wasn’t their fault etc etc.

Drivers parting shot: ” get some better brakes!”

Saw that story on a dad with 2 kids in a cargo bike getting pulled- and ‘disciplined’ about the dangers of cycling-for seemingly no legitimate reason.

— It got a bit of media coverage, which seemed to be supporting his right to do so.. Things may change.. Slowly…

@ben wouldn’t surprise me in the least, the law is a mess. No one actually seems to have thought about cycle facilities at any stage.

He can be identified by his PC number?

yes,

I read on another thread that all police cars are linked to a PC when on duty. So if you see crap driving take the cars reg report it too police.

We all like to think laws are black and white.. right and wrong.
But there’s so much open to interpretation and appropriate application.
And.. why the flexibility with upholding the law?
You break it, you know you are breaking it and when you pretend you are sorry you might get let off.
Not saying that zero tolerance is the answer but I just don’t get the discretion sometimes.

So driver is too far forward……and then you go even further forward using a two wrongs make a right principle 🙂

Genius.

In balance, in Enfield today Police were giving drivers- whilst stopped at red lights – leaflets with written, and verbal advice about taking care of cyclists, using mirrors, not entering cycle lanes or boxes. Etc.

I thought that was rather good.

Should also mention you say you went up the outside, you do now that it is an offence to enter the ASL zone by any route other than than feeder lane?

According to Carlton Reid etc on Twitter, there’s some uncertainty about the law around that.

I hope there is some uncertainty in the law about that since I think filtering up the inside of the front of a q to the ASL is one of the most risky moves we can make yet it’s encouraged by the road layouts. It’s the move that can get people killed by left-turning lorries.

I was threatened with arrest for cycling on a shared use path once. By a pcso…
I had a field day.

Sounds as if riding in London requires a camera just to prove the police are in the wrong when they issue you a fine incorrectly and you challenge it.

How exactly has something which is so simple, and so good for the individual and for society as a whole, become the target for so much prejudice, ignorance and scapegoating?

Cycling’s supposed to be simple and fun, and yet we have to fight our way through so many ignorant drivers and Police just to take a simple journey from A to B…

Hopefully the current fuss is the beginning of the turning point.

it is an offence to enter the ASL zone by any route other than than feeder lane?

Yeah, AFAIK the only legal way to enter an ASL by bike on a red light is via a filter lane or dashed line. So Solihull Council has helpfully painted these on the road:
http://goo.gl/maps/j1Yhx

I saw the tweet about the ‘uncertainty’ of that rule but I’m not sure I agree. It linked to this bit of the highway code:

“Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red”.

Just because it doesn’t also say “cyclists must stop” doesn’t mean they mustn’t. A lot of negatives there but hopefully you see what I mean.

Yeah, AFAIK the only legal way to enter an ASL by bike on a red light is via a filter lane or dashed line.

That’s not what the law says.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/43/made

(2) Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 [which shows a typical ASL stopline] has been placed in conjunction with light signals, “stop line” in relation to those light signals means—

(a)the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or
(b)the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane.

Now diag 1001.2 doesn’t show the odd case with no feeder lane – but the words clearly say a bike CAN cross line 1.

Met police are thugs and bullies ….uniform power.

“stop line” in relation to those light signals means—

(a)the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or

I read that as meaning bikes need to stop at the first line unless in the cycle lane. So with a typical kerbside cycle lane layout filtering up the outside and crossing the first stop line is illegal.

Broess – How exactly has something which is so simple, and so good for the individual and for society as a whole, become the target for so much prejudice, ignorance and scapegoating?

Cycling’s supposed to be simple and fun, and yet we have to fight our way through so many ignorant drivers and Police just to take a simple journey from A to B…

Hopefully the current fuss is the beginning of the turning point.

First they ignore you,
then they laugh at you,
then they fight you,
then you win.

Mahatma Gandhi

I reckon we are between stage 2 and 3

Met police are thugs and bullies

Not all of them (no i’m not one , but do have to liaise with them from time to time) but there does seem to be a disproportionately higher number of them than in other police forces. I blame having to put up with higher than normal number of idiots that inhabit London.

So driver is too far forward……and then you go even further forward using a two wrongs make a right principle

Genius.

And the alternative is?

There is also a very significant discontent between the met and the communities they serve. The officers tend not to live in the area and in any event the populations are larger. In a small village where the bobby is local he or she knows everyone and they know him or her . If the Bobby is an arse they soon get told in London the officers are by and large faceless representations of the force and those they police easily stereotyped lumps of the public.
That in part explains the police attitudes and also those of some of the public.

The apparent focus on cyclists as the problem to be targeted rather than lorries and car drivers is just going for a quick easy visible action so they are seen to be doing something rather than addressing the actual issues.

irc – I believe you are correct it was obviously too late at night!

‘really want that £50 fine’.

I’d have been inclined to say “No” in response and then wait patiently for an answer to my question…

As much as I empathise with your frustrations, Why did you absolutely have to be right at the front of the traffic queue OP?

I mean when presented with a driver who clearly can’t bring their van to a halt in the right place, do you really want to place yourself infront of them just to prove a point?

Why not just wait one or two vehicles back from the front give yourself some breathing space and time, rather than have to race a (probably impatient) van driver off the line?

Both You and the Rozzer were right up to a point, the argument is always going to be won by the copper as he can hand out a fine…

Are you sure you weren’t simply seeking a bit of confrontation given the increased police presence and recent events?

So driver is too far forward……and then you go even further forward using a two wrongs make a right principle
Genius.

And the alternative is?

Wait a little further back in the queue and grumble, or if it upsets you that much and being in the right matters, walk over and point out the ASL breaching Van to the observing officer…

Wait a little further back in the queue and grumble, or if it upsets you that much and being in the right matters, walk over and point out the ASL breaching Van to the observing officer…

He was filtering, so wasn’t in the queue.

He filtered past the queue then say in front of the whole lot across the line, yeah I got that thanks…

Are you really saying you can’t spot an obstruction in the ASL from a couple of car lengths back and find another spot to wait? copper couldn’t have objected and the chances of tangling with a dick in a Van would be reduced…

Just because ASL boxes exist doesn’t mean we always have to use them, or park ourselves right out in front if they are occupied by numpties in Vans…

I was threatened with arrest for cycling on a shared use path once. By a pcso…
I had a field day.

😆

Did you hold your wrists out for the cuffs?

“Take me officer. Hit me with the full force of the law!”