A quick google of news reports suggests these negotiations have been going on 5 years so I can (almost) understand why the Brigade is loosing patience with the Union and moving to the end game.
However, the Union can't reject the Brigade's suggestion on shifts (and also their compromise plan) and at the same time moan about how bad the Brigade is for not adopting their 24hr shift plan!
Seems some heads need banging together.
were are only paid for 42hrs not 48hrs
fair enough, but you can see why the cynic would say that a 24hr shift is designed to be the cushtiest for the FF? Complete your weekly hours obligations in two days = 5 day weekend for other jobs (after a bit of a kip, naturally)
Not 5 years at all, read the link that was posted earlier plenty in there, but to clarify there has been suggestions that it was changed but the councillors that make up the London fire and emergency planning authority had failed to reach a consensus up until 14 months ago, last August they voted on the changes and the vote failed, at this time the authority was made up of 5 tories, 3 labour, 2 lib dems, and 1 green, the tories voted for and the rest against stating they didn't think the given reasons were good enough, the brigade were given up to 18 months to re think and re draft the proposal. Then a couple of weeks later one labour councillor defected to the tories and the tory leader of the authority called an emergency meeting where the vote was taken again and not surprisingly passed by one. They then spent the winter and spring drawing up their battle plans presumably as there were no negotiations, before stalling through the start of the summer because they didn't want to talk to some of the union negotiators. Finally negotiations started in June 2010. So nearer 5 months than 5 years.
Then a couple of weeks later one labour councillor defected to the tories
I blame Labour.
I couldn't give a toss if a fire fighter does sleep for 8 hours of a 24 shift, I'd still rather they were 10 minutes closer to the appliance when the shout goes up.
Hampshire were apparently trying to reduce crews from 5 to 4. I'm no genius, but I can't see that that's going to make anyone safer including the fire fighters themselves.
this will make you laugh (well some it may) of the 12 stations we are dropping to day cover night call they have a cunning plan to help reduce turnout times
the plans are to block off the dorm doors which access the station and knock a new one to the outside of the building (thus bypassing the working time directive as you are away from your place of work)
you go to work as normal on the first day on at 8am then work til 7pm then you got to the dorm with your pager til 8am you then report for duty. you do this for 4 days and 4 nights and you are not allowed off station for the four days unless in the engine on work related stuff. you then have four days off and report again four days later.
as we are loosing 11 stations already and 15 pumps all remaining stations will be clearly much busier, so in not too many days you will be tired out.
you are allowed a visitor to the dorm 8pm til 10pm but so is everyone else so not very private
they plan on manning this by forcing everyone who joined after 2003 to do it as they have it in there contract that they will do any shift system enforced on them. they also as they wont have enough still plan on offering to pay the other people 9000 a year extra (non pensionable) if they cant supply the manpower no doubt they will just sack and re-employ us all
this is neither fair to new or old contract workers or family friendly one bit. but its what they are doing
also as of this year we are told when we are on leave , no if's or but's but when they tell you. ive got for kids at home and not one bit of leave during the school holidays at all this year. im also non too keen on missing out on half my kids lives for my remaining time in the job
Firestarter - is your complaint that you're still going to be allowed to receive visits from family and friends during working hours? And that you'll continue to work roughly the same number of hours?
This will probablly seem pretty bizarre to the many people who do shifts but can't invite friends and family round during their paid hours. Why is it that firefighters should be treated differently?
no the complaint is i will go to work on monday at 8am and not get home til friday at 8am
which by my working is 96 hours rather than the current 42 hours
djglover - MemberTo be honest Bazz, your coming across as bitter left wing now
Clever tactic.
You see Bazz as the least militant firefighter on here, so you level that accusation at him in the belief he might respond by posting stuff to try to counter the allegation, eg, "no I'm very critical of the FBU leadership, they pressurised us into voting in favour of the strike" etc etc.
Clever, but unfortunately for you djglover, it didn't work.
"no the complaint is i will go to work on monday at 8am and not get home til friday at 8am
which by my working is 96 hours rather than the current 42 hours "
You're out of touch. Sorry.
Plenty of people work away from home in the week - they certainly don't get paid on an hourly rate from the time they leave home to the time they get back - they get paid for the hours they actually work.
John he is not working away from home he is not leaving work for that entire period. I suspect you can tell the difference.
Stoner - Member
Then a couple of weeks later one labour councillor defected to the tories
I blame Labour.
Lol, so do i, apparently they were investigating her for corruption so she jumped before she was de selected. The tories happily gave a her a home, people of Brixton weren't to pleased as they never wanted a tory councillor, thats why they voted labour.
as junkyard says also for those on the newer contracts since 2003 they will be on the exact same salary that they are for 42 hours but there for 96. for the newer so called lucky ones its a 9 grand increase for being there an extra 54 hours cover
also ive worked away , ive also done years in the army but ive never worked somewhere where they said oh by the way you know that shift you do well we are ingoring it and making you work what we fancy and where we fancy
anyway our brigade arent striking as its happening and thats it. but i can see why london are
you go to work as normal on the first day on at 8am then work til 7pm then you got to the dorm with your pager til 8am you then report for duty. you do this for 4 days and 4 nights and you are not allowed off station for the four days unless in the engine on work related stuff. you then have four days off and report again four days later.
Do you have a link to this as I can't find any mention on the link above. Do they really propose that you are 'confined to barracks' for 4 days solid ? If so that's quite staggering!
woody thats our brigade not london. we signed up to the hours change about two years ago but since then they have changed our leave this year and all this to come
thats why london and other brigades are fighting the proposals as we were promised lots of protections when signing up for the new hours but it was basically a blank contract we ended up with (thanks in no small part to the union as it happens)
firestarter
but it was basically a blank contract we ended up withthat makes sense unfortunately and confirms my worst suspicions re union ineptitude. I think my lot will have the same problem in the not too distant future and management will have the upper hand. I'm afraid my experiences with unions and their 'reps' has not been good and I have no faith in their abilities (or the morals of many of them, which I will not go into here) and I speak as a union member
......confirms my worst suspicions re union ineptitude
And yet for me it just confirms what I already know, which is that trade unions, despite the media bollox, have no power or influence. Funny that.
"management will have the upper hand"
Yes they will. What did you think..........that the trade unions would have the "upper hand" ? 
In this particular case, the London FB management has been planning for the strike, and investing vast amounts of money, for over a year.
Wow i'm surprised it took this long for the rancid bitter right wing to leap on the "sleeping at night" bandwagon.
That was a mature and well thought out response. I did state I didn't understand the situation and was looking for clarification of why fire fighters could be expected work 24hr shifts because obviously there would be need for rest in that period (and if there was't surely that puts anyone your serving at risk). From everything above I still can't see why fire fighters can't work 'normal' shift patterns be it 12 or even 8 hours like everybidy else does. There seem to be very few jobs that might require the same person being on call for a 24hr period or greater, one of the few roles I can think of would be a doctor where maybe continuity of care may be compromised. Instead I got the usual defensive knee jerk left wing everyone's having a go at us response.
To me it sounds like the whole current situation is a right mess, which is obviously down to the management team to great extent. However it does appear the union is more than culpable in propagating the situation. Neither side seems prepared to talk sensibly and as a result every solution is a half baked hotch potch of compromnises and mini victories born out of point scoring. Seems like a lot of public sector negotiations are like this. Ironic really when most people in the public sector pride themselves on serving the public.....
which is that trade unions, despite the media bollox, have no power or influence.
I would disagree with your statement anyway, as unions do have power and influence if used correctly.
Just a thought...
The life of a firefighter is no longer as appealing as it apparently once was. If we believe the propaganda its a wonder any of them stay in the service at all. [There are very few careers where people who have been "in" for 15 years think life is better now than it was.] However given that everyone in the brigade is apparently on the brink of leaving anyway - are the union missing a trick? Play bluff - ok then fire service terminate everyone's contracts - union members won't sign the new contract and then you have a problem on the next day with no (or nearly no) staff. Or actually are the new T&Cs and the Union "Solidarity" not that strong?
It has struck me for a long time that the problem in many heavily unionised public services is that the management were promoted from within the "ranks" and therefore actually clueless about management (and in a "disciplined service" like the firebrigade this is worse as the masses are expected to follow instruction from above with little question). I suspect this is also exacerbated by the "characters" who end up as the union reps - and some sort of horrendous power struggle which has been going on for years/decades. The answer is of course to fire all the managers and put in some professionals (who no nothing about fighting fires but are good at managing and motivating people) of course that might not suit FFs who's career paths have just been wiped out...
Poly we now do that you can join and start right at station manager
C4 news tonight shhould be on c4 player, Jon Snow interviewing the Fire bod and the union bloke they agreed to talk tonight at 21.00hrs and then altered it to 09.00 hrs tomorrow morning, good argument, no or little eye contact between them.
the problem in many heavily unionised public services is that the management were promoted from within the "ranks" and therefore actually clueless about management
Oh excellent, the fact that management is crap is all down to the unions as well.
Stumpyjon - my apologies if my response was a little harsh, i seem to remember a thread from a while back where you had little sympathy for some dispute or another and came across imo as very right wing, it is very possible, with hind sight, that i made an assumption. My bad.
I largely agree with your second paragraph.
if i was a terror wrist i'd be looking to make 05/11/10 go with a B A N G
http://www.fbu.org.uk/newspress/pressrelease/2010/10_27.php
PEACE TALKS AT LONDON FIRE BRIGADE BREAK DOWN
Last night on national television, the leader of the London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (LFEPA), Brian Coleman, invited us to conciliation talks at 9am this morning. It’s dreadfully disappointing that after four hours there was still no sign of him or the Chief Fire Officer, Ron Dobson. Regrettably, the brigade representatives in attendance had nothing new to say to us.
Where was Councillor Coleman at 9am, having said that he would be here in talks with us? He is not taking this issue with the seriousness that firefighters and Londoners expect of the leader of the LFEPA.
The LFEPA proposals on new working hours would seriously disrupt firefighters’ family lives and lead to cuts in fire cover. All the same, the LFEPA does not have to reach agreement with us on shifts to get us to call off the strikes. They just have to withdraw the sacking notices that were sent out on August 11th.
Our message is that we will cancel all planned strikes if the brigade agrees to lift the mass sackings. We can then negotiate a fair settlement as equal parties.
***ENDS***
As has been mentioned above, winning public support is crucial here - especially for the govt to take any notice. Striking over bonfire night hardly seems the best way to do it - fireworks displays will be cancelled - bonfires torn down etc as Heath & Safety officers declare them too dangerous without adequate fire brigade cover.
Sounds like a PR own goal no matter how sound the motives behind it.
I've never ever been called to an organised bonfire or firework display so I can't see that happening.
During the 2002 dispute we were meant to strike bonfire night but decided not to after being fed lies. Then the employers laughed at us as they had won , and I mean high rank officers actually came to stations and took the pi55. as they hadn't had to sort bonfire night cover
The only problem I can see in all this is the employer / govt are always going to win all lfb can hope is some kind of comprise
PEACE TALKS AT LONDON FIRE BRIGADE BREAK DOWN
I watch John Snow last night arranging that 
I wonder if there will be any mention on tonight's news.
Our message is that we will cancel all planned strikes if the brigade agrees to lift the mass sackings.
Since that hasn't happened, you can be sure that this : "Brian Coleman, invited us to conciliation talks at 9am this morning" was nothing more than a totally meaningless PR exercise.
It is very clear the employer has no intention of negotiating, despite the demand by some, that the Fire Brigades Union should negotiate.
.
fireworks displays will be cancelled - bonfires torn down etc as Heath & Safety officers declare them too dangerous without adequate fire brigade cover.
Why ? Why would a out of control bonfire present a danger to human life ? Just walk away from the bonfire ........simply really. When was the last time a bonfire killed a load of people ? Most injuries on firework night occur because of fireworks. Which is hardly an issue for firefighters - what do you want them to do exactly ?
Actually the fact that many people will be out of their houses watching firework displays, means that there will be less people at home which need rescuing.
Anyway, don't any of you believe what the FB management says ? Brian Coleman chairman of the LFEPA has publicly said that FBU strikes will do nothing : "the only losers in all of this will be firefighters". According to him the public will not suffer. Don't you believe him ?
And if you really are that worried about firefighters not going to work, then why the **** aren't you worried about every firefighter in London getting the sack ? ffs.
It isn't a joke, they really are going to sack them all.
Apparently my boss, the commisoner for London fire brigade, has personally given the LFB press office orders to "leak" details of employees home addresses to the press so that a smear campaign can be run against us. Thats nice. Is that even legal?
This email was sent last night. It's on the radio so is common knowledge now.Hi
Me again. You may have read my previous emails which provided confidential info and predicted various events in the dispute - all of which came true. As I have said previously I have pretty good sources.
Here's something you ought to know. It made my blood boil and I hope it does yours too.
Assetco are struggling. One of its directors resigned in mysterious circumstances a few days ago, several strike breakers have pulled out and there are whispers at Union Street that the company may not be able to deliver for the 47 hour strike on 5 November. All of this has been relayed to Dobson who went loopy and told them they had no choice but to come up with the goods.
When the FBU announced it would strike on 5 November there was a top level meeting involving some senior members of the Brigade's Corporate Management Board and the media/communications department. Because of their concerns over Assetco, senior Brigade managers came to the conclusion that they must win this dispute before the 5 November strike starts...and they are investing their hopes in winning a media war by turning the pressure on the FBU.
I have it on the best authority that it was agreed at the top level meeting that the Brigade's media department was instructed to "unleash the forces of hell" on the FBU. That's how Dobson sees himself winning the dispute. It was no coincidence that within hours we saw highly personal attacks against Matt Wrack in tabloid papers as well as false claims that the Union is demanding a £10k pay rise. Matt Wrack's ex-wife has been doorstepped by the Daily Mail. There were also lurid stories planted in today's papers about how firefighters used violence against Assetco. All this stuff was fed to the press by the Brigade's media department.
But this is the worst thing. The Brigade's media department today released confidential info to the Sun and Daily Mail regarding the addresses where firefighters live. These newspapers will shortly run stories about how nearly 3000 firefighters live outisde of London in places like Newcastle, Dorset, Scotland and Spain. The line will be "How can firefighters claim they have it so bad when they live in these far flung places? They must have a wonderful shift system." The newspapers will also attack us for receiving London Weighting when we don't live in London.
The Brigade will obviously deny that they released these details, but wait and see if the stories appear. Trust me they will, over the next couple of days. THEN YOU CAN DECIDE WHO'S TELLING THE TRUTH.
This topic makes my blood boil. The amount of lies in the papers is beyond a joke.
My brother especially enjoyed the 'firemen can earn upto 50k with overtime' one.
The real joke is why Brian Coleman still has any say in the matter.
50k where where lol
50k where where lol
Why its right here in the Daily Mail, so it must all be true...........
This topic has been closed to new replies.
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