If you believe all the speculation in the papers (nb. "not yet proven fact") then the rehabilitation system has clearly failed this time - dodging vetting to become a nightclub doorman, regular trips fir nights out in Liverpool, drug habit - what a waste of my hard earned. Guess there's no changin some people - hopefully karma will address the scales of justice. Can't say i cried when baby p killer was scolded in the clink...
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James Bulgers killers. Some questions.
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Posted 2 years ago #
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steffybhoy - Member
TJ?
If crime has massively gone down.
Why is it the government(Scottish) is proposing to quash jail sentences of six months or less to ease the burden on overflowing jails.Because 1) we lock up people for longer for less than we used to and 2) short jail sentances are fairly pointless
Oh, and in an age when sentencing is less severe than it used to be.
Why is it that childrens homes/social work departments are bulging full?Because actually sentencing is far more severe than it used to be and there are significant social issues including a greater weillingness to take children into care following on from the baby P scandal
Also what about the crime figures? do they include the amount of non reported crimes due to people disillusioned with the legal system?
Yes they do as the figures are assembled from real peoples experience of real crime - not of reported crime, not of police stats but real peoples experience of real crime
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.htmlWhat you have been fooled by is the newspapers drumming up a moral panic about crime. The actual reality is very very different. Crime is massively down as you will see if you follow the BCS link
Posted 2 years ago # -
What you have been fooled by is the newspapers drumming up a moral panic about crime.
Yes well I fully expected drivel like that from the likes of you.
As I said look in the mirror, point and remind yourself of the valuable contribution you give to this country.
Me? I'll keep living in the real world.Posted 2 years ago # -
"His killers although 10 years old knew they were perpetrating the most heinous of acts."
Mikertroid - How do you know that? Any evidence to support?
Posted 2 years ago # -
steffybhoy
the point is in the real world crime is massively down since the 90s - no possible doubt about it. Even murder is down hugely - and that cannot be fudged. I do live in the real world. This is an absolute fact with no possible doubt.
As I said look in the mirror, point and remind yourself of the valuable contribution you give to this country.
I have spent 30 yrs looking after the old, the sick and the frail. I have given more to our society than many. I have not directly increased its wealth - but I have increased its wellbeing.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Munqe-chick - I completely agree with you about Paul Britton, he made a lot of money from the Jigsaw man (some might say he cashed in on a lot of cases he had worked on), and the follow up (I have it but cant remember the title, and cant be arsed looking for it) was even worse - it contained some rather dodgy views on a rape case, where he appeared to be saying that the victim was partially responsible due to the way she was dressed.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The news is now reporting that James Bulger's mother is demanding her "right" to know why Jon Venables has been taken taken into custody.
I'm sorry, but I don't follow the logic at all.
Her son was tragically murdered 17 years ago.
The perpetrators were caught and prosecuted by the state -not the victim's family. They were sentenced, served time and were released on licence. Breaking the terms of the licence resulted in further custody.
As the mother of the victim of the initial offence, what possible reason is there for her being told what Venables has done this time? It has nothing to do with her this time.
It must have been awful to lose a child in those circumstances, but I fail to see what this latest incident has to do with that.
I bet Jack Straw's heart sank when this case (originally not on his watch)reared its head again.
Posted 2 years ago # -
steffybhoy wrote, "Yes well I fully expected drivel like that from the likes of you."
Yet you don't seem to be able to actually refute any of his drivel? You said, "Oh, and in an age when sentencing is less severe than it used to be.", he correctly pointed out this is nonsense. It'll take you about 10 seconds to google for the facts on average jail sentences.
He might be wrong to say you've been led to your false impression by the press, it might be a kneejerk of your own personal devising or you might have been misled from other sources (politicians who would rather stand up and say "We'll increase punishment" than "Crime FELL!") but either way, he is correct on the facts and you owe him an apology.
Whenever you're ready.
Posted 2 years ago # -
First page of google!
Scotland has one of the highest murder rates in Europe
Scotland has highest rate of cocaine use in the world, claims United Nations study
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Crime-Justice/TrendPris
Apology? go poke yersel.
Posted 2 years ago # -
What exactly do you think that graph shows? We know prison population is up. Prison population /= crime
The Scottish murder rate of 2.1 per 100000 quoted in 05-06 is lower than it was in 1992, 1993 and 1994, and just barely over the 10-year average from 84 to 94. it's classic bad stat use, the 2004-2005 rate of 1.59 was lower than at almost any point in that same period, it's not quite a peak low but it was very low indeed, a very good year. The "increase" in 2005-2006 was barely more than a return to the norm.
Try this one for size
http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/story-prison-population.pdf
"Increase in immediate custodial sentenced population
The growth in numbers in prison having been sentenced to immediate custody has been the single most important contributor to the overall growth, representing 78% of the total increase between 1995 and 2009. There were two main reasons behind the growth in this segment of the prison population: (a) the courts sentenced more offenders to prison each year between 1995 and 2002; and (b) offenders have been staying in prison for longer."(a) Increase in numbers sentenced to immediate custody
From 1995 to 2002, increasing numbers of adult4 offenders were sentenced to immediate custody for indictable offences5, with the annual volume rising by around 23,000 by 2002. <snip> The increase in the immediate custody rate is part of a wider trend of tougher sentencing outcomes.From 2000 to 2008, the average time served in prison increased by 14% (from 8.1 to 9.3 months) for those released from determinate sentences. This was due to a 15% increase in the average custodial determinate sentence length handed down by the courts between 2000 and 2004"
Posted 2 years ago # -
Steffiboy - what is that supposed to prove?
Go read the research. Crime is significantly down - this is an indisputable fact.
Sentences for the same crime have increased. indisputable fact.
Murder rate is the lowest for decades Indisputable fact.
I am afraid you are simply taking high grade bollx
Go read the BCS survey
Posted 2 years ago # -
LOL! Increase in UK population->recession->crime rate down = Wooohoo! We live in paradise! Yes, because the statistic says so and politicians are angels. We need to worship celebrities.
The mother has all the logic and right to know the identity of both killers. That right is hers and her alone. The memory of her child is hers and she is the only one that can forgive the murderers. Unless you want to " medically erase" her mind to make her forget?
The law is only artificially there to govern the rights or wrongs but it does not govern one's thought. Until such time as she can forgive them the logic is her.
What is illogical is that some want to impose their "logic" on her. LOL! How twisted! Yes, we are the same and let us impose our thoughts on others. Fe*k me. Now listen to my logic and let me tell you how you should think. The salt crocs are hungry ...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Chewk - crime falls with increasing prosperity so I would expect the next set of stats to show a rise crimes rises in recessions- and the drop is far greater than any rise in population - 40% down from the peak in the early 90s.
Why does the mother have any right to know the new identity of the killers? Do you really think all this press fuss is helping her?
Posted 2 years ago # -
The mother has all the logic and right to know the identity of both killers. That right is hers and her alone. The memory of her child is hers and she is the only one that can forgive the murderers. Unless you want to " medically erase" her mind to make her forget?
What?!?
In the UK the state 'punishes' criminals. It is not carried out by the families of victims. If one of the men (presumably the other one has not done similar) who has been released on licence(rightly or wrongly) has committed a recent offence it is very unlikely to have affected the mother of their earlier victim. What does it have to do with her -or any of us? I can only assume that the parole board are doing their job correctly.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Rockitman, unless they had zero IQ, the acts they dealt that poor child were deliberate, heinous and callous.
My 5 year old son would know that inserting batteries into a 2 year olds eyes was wrong; I'm pretty sure those 10 year olds did too.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The Jigsaw man by Paul Britton, whilst providing some useful insights, should not be taken as proof. He often used unlawful methods to extract confessions out of suspects. Look at the mess he made of the Rachel Nickell case.
JV's recent case (if there is one to answer) has nothing to do with his previous crimes and should be dealt with on its own merits. However painful this is for Denise Bulger/Fergus she should not get involved and leave the legal and judicial process to take its course.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Each time I hear something about this case I feel upset. It plays on my mind and I get unwanted images of a terrified child. Do you think the 2 who are guilty of it go through the same? My guess is no - that's why IMO there's no place for them in this life.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Mikertroid wrote, "My 5 year old son would know that inserting batteries into a 2 year olds eyes was wrong; I'm pretty sure those 10 year olds did too."
They didn't do that.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Northwind. You're wrong.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Geronimo - Member
What?!?
In the UK the state 'punishes' criminals. It is not carried out by the families of victims. If one of the men (presumably the other one has not done similar) who has been released on licence(rightly or wrongly) has committed a recent offence it is very unlikely to have affected the mother of their earlier victim. What does it have to do with her -or any of us? I can only assume that the parole board are doing their job correctly.
Yes, the state can impose whatever punishment it sees fit according to the "civilised" law. But are you saying that the state has the right to take away the memory of those murderers from her? Not even "god" nor any "supreme beings" have that right let alone the puny "civilised" state.
... has committed a recent offence it is very unlikely to have affected the mother of their earlier victim.
Now are you saying she should feel your logic? If that is the case are you saying you have higher logic than hers? How much higher a logic do you have?
What does it have to do with her -or any of us? I can only assume that the parole board are doing their job correctly.
It has nothing to do with you nor your feeling. Your assumption on the action of the parole board is irrelevant to her call(anger etc) to identify the murderers.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Don't believe I am, no.
Posted 2 years ago # -
northwind how do you know what they did or did'nt do ?
Posted 2 years ago # -
TandemJeremy - Member
Chewk - crime falls with increasing prosperity so I would expect the next set of stats to show a rise crimes rises in recessions- and the drop is far greater than any rise in population - 40% down from the peak in the early 90s.
Hhhhmmm ... TJ is sending coded message that the next govt will be in trouble. LOL!
Why does the mother have any right to know the new identity of the killers?
Because the killers owe her when they murdered her son and they owe her until she forgives them.
Do you really think all this press fuss is helping her?
If she has not forgiven the killers then it make no difference.
If she has made peace with herself by forgiving the killers then I see no difference too, as the killers' heinous crime has now bore fruit on themselves.
Posted 2 years ago # -
"northwind how do you know what they did or did'nt do ?"
How do you or Mikertroid? I have no special knowledge, just what was reported. Court reports stated batteries were found at the scene, and it was one of the details that helped to break Robert Thompson's denials, he said that Jon Venables threw them into Bulger's face. Most reports say they were placed in his mouth, some made that part of the alelged "child's play" link. Absolutely no reliable reports that I can see say they were pushed into his eyes, frinstance if you google for it you get one guy saying that a "copper mate" of his said that batteries were "hammered into his eyes", which definately didn't happen. And that's it.
You also get lots of hits to that horrendous chain email that does the rounds every 2 years that's completely full of lies, the one that doesn't seem to think the real crime was horrific enough so adds some imaginary details to spice it up.
Anyway. Getting off the topic and mired in horrible detail.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Anyway. Getting off the topic and mired in horrible detail.
I rather think that is the topic. The details are horrible & we should not put them to one side. Clearly the details mean little to Venables. Do we want to live in a society which allows him to carry out further acts which may at some point be described as "horrible details."
Posted 2 years ago # -
OK, I'm in no way trying to "put it to one side." What I mean is, there's a risk here of derailing the thread into pointless dissection of exactly what was done, which would just be morbid and IMO tasteless.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Clearly the details mean little to Venables
you get this information from where? From what I have read one of the key things that led to him being released on liscence was that he showed remorse
Do we want to live in a society which allows him to carry out further acts
Of course not - which is why he is serving life and only released on licence
Posted 2 years ago # -
Feeling remorseful - or displaying what the system requires to get an early release? Guess we'll never know. I reckon it's the latter
Posted 2 years ago # -
Northwind; I don't need to discuss HOW I know; it's enough to say they lost their right to breathe on that day.
My point (rather than discuss all aspects of that fateful day) was that at 10, those boys knew EXACTLY what they were doing and as a result disappeared of the face of human society.
By placing his head above the parapet, hopefully Venables will get what he truly deserves inside.
Posted 2 years ago # -
TJ, the details clearly mean little to him because he is out re-offending. If he was truly remorseful about his former crimes he would think twice about committing more.
His licence includes a number of conditions which he is not allowed to breach, and reportedly he has breached a number of them. Even if we allow for the hyperbole of the press there is some definite reason why he has be returned to custody. It wasn't just for dropping a fag butt by mistake.
Releasing him on licence permits him to return to society, and in his case, he has carried out further acts. Life should now mean absolutely life.
So I think the information is quite clear to anyone who thinks logically.
Posted 2 years ago # -
So I think the information is quite clear to anyone who thinks logically.
this is trueTJ, the details clearly mean little to him because he is out re-offending.
this however has no logic to it at all
Nor has this
My point (rather than discuss all aspects of that fateful day) was that at 10, those boys knew EXACTLY what they were doing and as a result disappeared of the face of human society.
It is very clear that many folk here are not thinking logically but are understandably enough being emotional about it.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Northwind; I don't need to discuss HOW I know;
Well if you want anybody to take your allegations seriously, yes you do. Otherwise it's just completely unsubstantiated hearsay. Feel free to introduce such hearsay on this forum - within certain parameters it does approximate free speech on here. Just don't expect anybody to believe you, particularly given your continued advocacy for capital punishment for 10 year olds makes it rather hard to take anything you say seriously.Posted 2 years ago # -
TJ, the details clearly mean little to him because he is out re-offending.
this however has no logic to it at all
I don't really understand what you mean here. Are you meaning that he may be full of remorse for the murder of James Bulger, but that he hasn't learned anything from his rehabilitation?
And just to clarify, I'm not supporting a death penalty for 10 year olds.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I mean that for you to say
the details clearly mean little to him because he is out re-offending.
has no logic. You cannot extrapolate that the details of his crime mean little to him because he has done something - we don't know what - to have his licence revoked.The one thing does not follow on from the other.
Posted 2 years ago # -
hang the ****, no longer a danger , or a drain on our system , simples.
Posted 2 years ago #
Topic Closed
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