Blaming the victims again. Typical. It just really puts paid to your constant ridiculous claims of how careful the Israelis are not to hurt civilians. I’m sure next you’re going to tell me that if any civilians were killed in that systematic levelling of entire neighbourhoods that it’s their own fault for being there.

I not you also failed to comment on the fact that the Israeli police don’t believe those kidnappings were ordered by Hamas leadership.

Sheikh Saleh al-Arouri, a senior Hamas religious figure, is heard on the video saying that he “blessed the heroic action” which was “carried out by the al-Qassam Brigades” — the armed wing of Hamas. This action, “the kidnapping to Hebron of the three settlers,” was an “operation spoken of far and wide,” al-Arouri added.

The sheikh was speaking at a conference of Muslim scholars in Turkey.

“There are those who say that it was your brothers in the al-Qassam Brigades, who carried it out for the sake of al-Qassam members who are in jails and who sit in a hunger strike,” al-Arouri continued, according to a Hebrew translation provided by Channel 2.

That’s his ‘admission that Hamas ordered the kidnapping’ – it’s far from conclusive that Hamas senior command were aware of or ordered the kidnapping – they have denied it and the Israeli police concluded it was likely a Hamas-affiliated cell acting independently.

Either way it was no excuse for the sickening mass slaughter carried out by Israel in response (before they even had any idea who was responsible). You really ought to be ashamed of yourself for your constant attempts to justify the indefensible.

Re-arming Iraq. Interesting piece with the dynamic between US and Russian arms manufacturers competing to sell weapons. Whenever the US steps back Russia steps in.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIzn45hcNLQ[/video]

grum the rockets had been coming for 6 months and the amount increased dramatically after the Israelis stepped up the arrests in the West bank following the kidnapping. The Head of Hamas in the West Bank (released and deported to Turkey by the Israelis as part of the prisoner exchange) said they had organised the kidnapping. I’ll take his word for claiming responsibility.

Civilians are indeed the victims of Hamas’s pointless campaign of violence. Hamas intended to put images of dead civilians on our TV screens, that’s why they invite in all the journalists and provoke a conflict they cannot possibly hope to win militarily. They are fighting a PR war using their own people as ammunition.

grum the rockets had been coming for 6 months and the amount increased dramatically after the Israelis stepped up the arrests in the West bank following the kidnapping.

Rockets that largely fall in fields – yes it’s wrong but it’s not the same as levelling whole neighbourhoods full of civilians is it.

The Head of Hamas in the West Bank (released and deported to Turkey by the Israelis as part of the prisoner exchange) said they had organised the kidnapping.

Not really – did you even bother to read the quote I posted? He was widely reported to have said they organised the kidnapping, if you look at what he actually said it’s far less clear. But I wouldn’t expect you to do anything other than precisely parrot the Israeli propaganda machine.

Civilians are indeed the victims of Hamas’s pointless campaign of violence.

It wasn’t Hamas that levelled those entire neighbourhoods in Gaza. Those are the precision strikes designed to limit civilian casualties you are always talking about.

3 kids kidnapped, perpetrators unclear – let’s start indiscriminately bombing, killing, maiming and destroying the homes thousands of men, women and children, most of whom had precisely **** all to do with it.

And here you are trying to justify it. Sickening.

Also, let’s be quite clear – according to Netanyahu the response wasn’t about stopping rockets or stopping kidnappings, it was about revenge.

t wasn’t like it is now until they started sending suicide bombers from the West Bank or Hamas took control in Gaza. Israel signed an agreement to progress a two state solution, this is something the PA/PLO accept and Hamas rejects

IIRC that german fella blamed the jews and their actions for his inhuman treatment of them. I believe the jews provoked him into kristallnacht as well with a terrorist act. It was as convincing and morally sound as what you are advocating have a word with yourself will you?
Secondly the criticism is that you blame the victim . Your response is to blame the victim in every post after this claim. You seem to have escalated this to they were asking for it/wanted it so now the rapists defence is being employed.

Again shame on your “logic”,your compassion and your morals.

There is no doubt the situation is complicated and has “monsters” on both sides. However to constantly say that everything Israel does, which is the killing of civilians in collective punishments ,which is illegal under international law and is morally reprehensible, is both the victims fault and their goal is preposterous , unhelpful and heartless.
Probably nbest if I just ignore your Zionist heartless diatribes

This is a country where a senior political in the ruling party

calls for Gazans to be ’concentrated in camps’ – and then all resistance ‘exterminated’

Or another Israeli member of parliament says this:

The Palestinian people has declared war on us, and we must respond with war. Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings. Enough with the oblique references. This is a war. Words have meanings. This is a war. It is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. These too are forms of avoiding reality. This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.

I don’t know why it’s so hard for us to define reality with the simple words that language puts at our disposal. Why do we have to make up a new name for the war every other week, just to avoid calling it by its name. What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy. A declaration of war is not a war crime. Responding with war certainly is not. Nor is the use of the word “war”, nor a clear definition who the enemy is. Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.

Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”

Any of this kind of rhetoric sound familiar to students of history?

Perhaps he’s actually sort of right now though, it is a war between people – although it’s too extreme in his rhetoric. With the rise of Islamism and how ISIS treats Kurds and Iraqi Christians, can you actually ever see the two sides living together in any sort of peace? The tensions were bad enough in the Palestine 100 years ago, even before the rise of modern Islamism and zionism.

With the rise of Islamism and how ISIS treats Kurds and Iraqi Christians, can you actually ever see the two sides living together in any sort of peace?

Absolutely I can. But first of all the racists and the bigots with their poisonous creed have to be silenced.

I don’t see it, after a one state solution occurs it would invariably descend into one side attempting to butcher the others in their sleep as soon as they felt they had an advantage. It’s not racism and bigotry that’s causing the issues, it’s history and ideology. The latter two are so deeply ingrained into the collective consciousness of both sides that it can never be excised.

Leave ISIS to their own devices, no point fighting them, we (the west) will start talking with them in years to come as we did the jews in Palestine.
We will establish a Islamic state, as we did Israel, and then we will trade with them.

We should just cut to the chase and get on with the negotiations, we are a spineless, greedy obnoxious bunch in the west, lets do what we do best and negotiate a trade deal.

It sickens me to look at the myself as part of a western democracy that is in this position, and I can see what we are going to do. I just hate the west for what it is

We should just cut to the chase and get on with the negotiations, we are a spineless, greedy obnoxious bunch in the west, lets do what we do best and negotiate a trade deal.

Not everyone’s a tory/ukip voter 😆 (runs to hide under rock)

it’s history and ideology

And history tells us that a hundred years ago under the rule of Ottoman Muslims a quarter of the population of Baghdad was Jewish. Things started to change when Zionist racists began driving Palestinians from their lands because they weren’t Jewish.

And even more recently Christians could live freely in Iraq. A former Iraqi Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister was a Christian. All that changed thanks to the mess created by Bush and Blair – ironically two Christians.

ernie_lynch – Member

Ernie you do know they don’t eat pork don’t you?

Aren’t they all racists and bigots thinking pork is dirty?

I just had pulled pork for lunch and I like bacon so why do they view me as “dirty” for eating pork?

Pork is good and tasty so what’s wrong with pork?
Q1. Your task now is to research / google the reason behind pork consumption prohibition.

Q2. Also why does a person needs to convert to their religion if one of their partner comes from their religion. e.g. if you married a Muslim you have to convert and similarly for Jews as well if I am not mistaken. Research that then give me your explanation.

Most importantly why don’t they eat pork!

🙄

And history tells us that a hundred years ago under the rule of Ottoman Muslims a quarter of the population of Baghdad was Jewish. Things started to change when Zionist racists began driving Palestinians from their lands because they weren’t Jewish.

That’s being deliberately misleading, there was fighting before Palestinians were driven from their land. Quite often caused by Muslims who had become increasingly anti-semitic. Eg the Nebi Musa riots and Hebron massacre, which led to an increase in the popularity of zionism, however it wasn’t until the Holocaust that Zionists really call for a Jewish state. Not only that, earlier forms of Zionism were mostly a reaction to European anti-semitism as well.

Zionism wasn’t about racism, it was about security.

Q1. Your task now is to research / google the reason behind pork consumption prohibition.

I think I might have misunderstood the question and ended up googling “cannibalism in Borneo”.

Carnage and cannibalism in Borneo as ethnic conflict rages

What’s all that about Chewwy, why is the taste of man flesh so popular back home ?

Tom_W1987 – Member

That’s being deliberately misleading, there was fighting before Palestinians were driven from their land.

Is that the first time you have admitted on here Tom that Palestinians were driven from their land ?

IME Zionists are very reluctant to admit it.

So have you thought of some sort of justification for driving people from their land…..what is it ?

I’m not justifying anything, I’m just correcting you on historical context. People get driven from their land in all sorts of wars, ethnic Germans were driven from their land by the advancing red army – that’s what happens when one side is the victor. I do however entirely disagree with what is going on in the west bank and gaza as much as the next person.

Understanding on both sides as opposed to blame is key, of which you have none.

Dont forget if they get a bit upset/protest about this then Jam is here to explain why they deserve any type of punishment you care to meet out as its their fault for not liking you stealing their land.

EDIT: of course understanding and a change of mind set from both sides is key but you wont win hearts and minds [ or peace] by stealing their land and then treating them the way Israel does. Anyone in that state [ any country any religion] is going in being angry to the extent they fight back. The starting point has to be from Israel and then the Palestinians have to reciprocate in kind. The Israel action, given the massive land grabs and horrible treatment needs to be both bold, sincere and in line with International law/boundaries.

i wont hold my breath whilst the west and zionist justify them bombing the shit out of ghettos they created as self defence
those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of history. Thousand of years of repression and poor treatment and all they seem to have learned is how to dish out 😥

ernie_lynch – Member

Q1. Your task now is to research / google the reason behind pork consumption prohibition.

I think I might have misunderstood the question and ended up googling “cannibalism in Borneo”.

Carnage and cannibalism in Borneo as ethnic conflict rages

What’s all that about Chewwy, why is the taste of man flesh so popular back home ? [/quote]

Oh that those are long pig you are talking about that’s our neighbour from Papua. They are nice people and they love long pig. Are you now going to condemn them for eating long pig too?

Back to the question on pork consumption. What you say? Research please. Hurry up!

😆

Understanding on both sides as opposed to blame is key, of which you have none.

There’s some merit in what you say, but it has it’s limits.

Should the Polish have been ‘understanding’ when invaded by Germany for instance: two sides to every story etc – not really anyone in particular to blame?

of course understanding and a change of mind set from both sides is key but you wont win hearts and minds [ or peace] by stealing their land and then treating them the way Israel does. Anyone in that state [ any country any religion] is going in being angry to the extent they fight back. The starting point has to be from Israel and then the Palestinians have to reciprocate in kind. The Israel action, given the massive land grabs and horrible treatment needs to be both bold, sincere and in line with International law/boundaries.

I’ve made my points I think, I will say that I do agree with this despite Ernies previous accusations that I’m a zionist.

I’m not justifying anything

So you can’t justify driving Palestinians from their land. Excellent.

I assume therefore that you fully accept Palestinians are completely justified in taking back what is theirs. Instead of quietly sitting in the Gaza Bank concentration camp which the Zionists have built them.

I assume therefore that you fully accept Palestinians are completely justified in taking back what is theirs. Instead of quietly sitting in the Gaza Bank concentration camp which the Zionists have built them.

Nope, I’m a realist so I think that a two state solution is the only answer.

Given that, at root, this is all just the latest chapter in the war between Sunni and Shia and assuming that neither side is going to reject religion anytime soon, wouldn’t it be better to avoid getting involved in all the kerfuffle and encourage the two sects to seek an amalgamation?

Yes what needs to happen is that a western kafir should encourage them to solve the issue created from the death of the prophet. Perhaps its the perfect opportunity for the envoy of peace ?

Can we get Al quaeda to solve the catholic protestant thing at the same time as a win win exchange programme

Nope, I’m a realist so I think that a two state solution is the only answer.

In other words you want to keep the land which you fully agree the Palestinians were driven from and was theirs.

Any ideas why your solution might not sound very attractive to Palestinians ?

I think they probably need to accept that as a side effect of initiating things like the Hebron massacre Ernie and start being realistic. Israelis for various reasons will never feel safe in a one state solution and they have a sound historical basis for feeling that way.

My views don’t include the destruction of the Israeli state, the views the Iranian government and yourself apparently hold.

Prior to the ’67 war the West Bank was in Jordan and Gaza in Egypt. So who’s land was it exactly ?

Catholic / Protestant, Sunni / Shia. One of these is much more troublesome than the other.

bit upset/protest

Quite the understatement

ernie_lynch – Member
So you can’t justify driving Palestinians from their land. Excellent.

That is Not their land. 🙄

Go do more research …

Yes what needs to happen is that a western kafir should encourage them

Admirable use of sarcasm there, yard.

Long game, of course, and we’d have to keep on top of containment, but I think it might work in the long term if we could engage in some “behavioural programming”.

Or we could just steam in and kill them all.

I think they probably need to accept that as a side effect of initiating things like the Hebron massacre Ernie and start being realistic. Israelis for various reasons will never feel safe in a one state solution and they have a sound historical basis for feeling that way.

You’ve brought up the Hebron massacre before as if is the only massacre carried out between Jews and Muslims. There is the (much more recent and involving many more deaths) Deir Yassin massacre of Palestinians carried out by Zionists which you conistently seem to ignore – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

I wonder why you keep doing this?

You’ve brought up the Hebron massacre before as if is the only massacre carried out between Jews and Muslims. There is the (much more recent and involving many more deaths) Deir Yassin massacre of Palestinians carried out by Zionists which you conistently seem to ignore – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

I wonder why you keep doing this?

There are plenty of massacres that can be brought up on either side that happened after the events that I discussed, the point was, is that those events played pivotal roles in the development of zionism. Which was a reaction to Arab and European anti-semitism, note the first 9-10 incidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

Again, I have made this point time and time again, if people really really want peace and reconciliation then they have to start understanding the reasons behind the motivations of their enemies. That goes for both the Arabs and the Israelis. Ernies brand of rhetoric has no place in that.

Agreed Tom.

The most recent significant agreements where the Oslo accords (20 years ago now), democratically the Palestianians in Gaza rejected those proposals and the proposed jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority to speak for all Palestinians. The Hamas mandate wasn’t a two state solution it was the destruction of Israel. It seems quite clear to me each time Hamas has fought a war or inflamed the conflict the situation of Palestinians has gotten worse. Sooner or later I hope they work out the correlation but I’m not holding my breath. Clear evidence they are rebuilding the attack tunnels from Gaza into Israel, using valuable materials which could be used to rebuild houses.

EDIT: FFS you have dont it again whilst i was typing
Here have this cut and paste from me 🙄

I blame the palestinians for everything and they bring it on themselves

Quite the understatement

Says the person who when given an analogy involving me stealing your house cannot even muster a reply 😕 your argument is so weak you cannot even attempt to justify your position of victim blaming.

Probably best to ignore this next

. Anyone in that state [ any country any religion] is going in being angry to the extent they fight back.

and then have a pop at the victims or my ironic wording

Amazed you make no comment on this …remind you of anyoine in Eurpope middle of the last century?

Israel’s siege and blockade of Gaza are central pillars of a policy of economic warfare intended to punish the entire population of the tiny, occupied coastal strip in the hopes that Palestinians living there will blame Hamas for their predicament and reject the organization as well as any resistance to Israel’s continued control of the territory. As noted by the UN and human rights organizations such as Amnesty International, this amounts to collective punishment, which is a violation of international law. (See below for more on the legal status of the blockade and siege.)
In early 2006, Dov Weisglass, then a senior advisor to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, explained that Israeli policy was designed “to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.” In 2012 it was revealed that in early 2008 Israeli authorities drew up a document calculating the minimum caloric intake necessary for Palestinians to avoid malnutrition so Israel could limit the amount of foodstuffs allowed into Gaza without causing outright starvation.

Probably the starving peoples fault thought eh and noble Israel has not choice but to half starve folk whilst land grabbing and doing collective punishments

Everyone can see it has causes and effects in both sides everyone but you that is …none so blind as those who will not see.

And this is why international opinion condemning Israel’s racist and Apartheid policies is so important :

Israeli government suspends Palestinian bus ‘segregation’ trial

“Our correspondent says it appears Mr Netanyahu over-ruled Mr Yaalon after detecting the danger of damage to Israel’s international reputation.”

This reversal of a blatant Jim Crow law might only represent a small victory but it is a victory nonetheless. And it clearly shows why maximum pressure against the Zionist Apartheid state must be relentlessly applied. Israel as a general rule ignores international public opinion but this rule was so pointless and damaging for the Zionists that it easily succumbed to pressure.

Out of interest:

– does anyone think that if a 2-state solution to Israel/Palestine had been thrashed out (post-Oslo, say) that all else being equal we’d not have an ISIS problem now?

– Iran is doing a lot of the heavy-lifting of fighting ISIS (including apparently using hesbollah troops) Does anybody reckon that Iran’s apparently pretty real chance of getting rehabilitated as a serious international player might shift their stance on Israel over the next few years?

JY seems to be forum practice here that most questions / points go without a specific responce, you’re one of the worst offenders. You’re pretty consistent in trying to claim victory at every turn, again nothing new there. The Palestinians have to take some responsibility for the current situation, they have a puesdo democracy and they voted in Hamas in Gaza. It did not have to be this way, after Israels withdraw from Gaza they chose a path of confrontation. That can’t possibly end well for them and it hasn’t so far. The wall around the West bank came about to stem the flow of suicide bombers.

There are very strong voices inside Israel which have said that the 2014 war showed that Israel should have acted sooner against the attack tunnels. Hamas appear to believe that more wars further their aims. Israel has responded by hardening its stance, eg

1) no two state solution during Netanyahu’s term – obvious really as if the Oslo agreements of 20 years ago came to nothing there isn’t going to be progress in the next 5 years either)
2) more West Bank settlements – as far as Israel is concerned that’s 100% their land as a result of the ’67 war when Jordan conceded the territory to them

Israel’s view is they offered a two state solution with the Oslo agreements and Palestinians rejected that agreement which had been signed by Araft and the PLO. People speak of Palestine and Palestinians as one group but the fact is it is not one group, its many disparate factions with disparate views.

The “driven off their land argument” is very weak, it depends how far back in history you go. It’s an unwinnable argument.

@BigDummy – no Israel/Palestine has zero impact on the IS situation, that is all about sectarian divisions within Islam. Most of the Middle East doesn’t really care about Palestine, they have their own issues to deal with and perceive the Palestinians are picking fights they cannot possibly win (view shared with me by many Arabs in the Gulf who for the sake of completeness are critical of Israel). Egypt is fighting its own wart against the Palestinians who they blame for encouraging and participating in terrorist attacks in the Sinai. Iran / Israel – in time I could see a reconciliation but its very very far off. They are still supplying Hamas/Hezbolah with significant amounts of arms. The Obama administration is trying to rescue the presidency with a few key international successes (prior withdrawl from Iraq has gone badly wrong), Obama wants a nuclear agreement for his own ego, so he has something to be remembered for on the international stage. Israel isn’t going to get mixed up in that, even the Iranians see him as yesterdays man

Israel as a general rule ignores international public opinion

Israel listens to it’s supporters most closely, like the US where it has very strong backing not just from the political class but also from the population. 9/11 really cemented that. 80% of the world’s Jews live either in the Israel or the US, Americans identify much more strongly with Jews/Israel than they do with Islam/Arabs.

The bus proposal was a poor one and Netanyahu stopped it. Suicide bombers have been curtailed with the building of the wall, separate buses are not necessary. If there is another suicide attack the separated bus proposal will be back.

The new Israeli government is overall more hardline, a consequence of the Gaza conflict in 2014 with even more people believing the Palestinians are not interested in peace (fairly widely held view anyway)