Well E-L, if you can't see that, then you are merely proving a point and falsifying your own conclusion. So your quote will be extremely useful, thanks!
Never mind, lets just continue as we are. But don't complain when you re-enforce the very outcome you hate (and the Head warns against):
"the dominance again at the best universities and in the best careers of those educated in independent schools. "
I'd be tempted to agree with him about the loss of the grammar schools - there are too many young people who are forced into a system that is designed for the academically gifted and who end up failing in school and often bringing down the ones who would thrive with them. It would be far better if there was a more vocationally-oriented system for them, and an opportunity for the kids who are academically bright to really push the boat out.
The loss of aspiration amongst many of the working class people of Scotland is a significant problem, and I've seen a fair bit of evidence to suggest that the lack of these options in secondary education is part of the cause of that (evidence was some time ago, and I doubt it would be available online)
But don't complain when you re-enforce the very outcome you hate (and the Head warns against).
How do you know what I hate ?
Do you do my thinking for me ?
True - I should have phrased that better. Sorry!
Thank you 
ernie_lynch - MemberI'm not sure there even is another side. UK governments have been implementing broadly the same policies for over 30 years and there's no sign of any imminent change.
No it's not class war.War requires at least two sides to be fighting. Up until now at least, one side isn't putting up any sort of fight.
UK governments have been implementing broadly the same policies for over 30 years and there's no sign of any imminent change.
Really ? So all the fuss this government has been creating, and their policies are broadly the same as the last government's ? Well I never.
Which also begs the question - how much public sector have we got left ? I mean if every government for the last 30 years has been cutting the public sector by 25% across the board, then there can't be much left.
There's some shocking class prejudice going on here. Why not get a therapist and work out why you're so angry with some 'other' group of society instead of letting it take you over?
We're in a difficult place. The simple narratives like 'it was Labour, it was the Tories, it was the Bankers, it was the rich' ad nauseum are all deliberately oversimplifying the situation, bandied about by vested interests. Why involve yourselves in it? You lose.
The best way out of this is positive attitude, hard work and creating some opportunities for ourselves and each other. And don't forget we're still amongst the richest people in the world...
teamhurtmore - he is not talking about a true comprehensive system tho.
Scotland in the 70s had pretty much a true comprehensive system - no grammer schools, no grant aided schools, very few fee paying school places no false "choice"
the eduction was amongst the best this country has ever had. The grammar system ruins opportunity for those in the middle - there is no flexibility after 11, if you are of middle ability you end up either at teh top of the secondary modern denied academic opportunity or you are struggling at the bottom of the grammar school and neglected by the teachers.
True comprehensives allow flexibility and allow people to flourish with the top achievers acting as role models. You can still stream. The academic people will do well wile allowing those in the middle to flourish and allowing those at the bottom to have an equal opportunity and to have a fair share of resources
It was ruined by the false "choice" agenda of the thatcher years which allowed ghetto schools to develop
There's some shocking class prejudice going on here. Why not get a therapist and work out why you're so angry with some 'other' group of society instead of letting it take you over?
He says, in a refrained and calm manner without a hint of anger.
Oh I know why I am angry with Cameron and his coterie of toffs. And its perfectly rational
They have grabbed more than their share of the money and use the power that gives them to get more.
They are intent on destroying the NHS and the pensions of the public servants. They lie and cheat
Gove made an interesting speech in Cambridge last week, it is typical of Gove in that he likes to show off his erudition, which puts many off, but some of his essential points were worthy. He expounds the importance of education for education's sake, not just as a means to an economic end, viz:
But it is important that while we acknowledge the critical role that higher educational standards can play in generating wealth and spreading opportunity more evenly, it’s really important that we do not subordinate education to purely economic ends.
Such aspiration I would have thought most would agree with.
The full speech is reproduced here in the Daily Mail
We live in age where we want the sound bite more than the details. As such the 'Class War' term suits all the media outlets. Like most complicated things what is going on is not black and white but many shades of grey - as this thread shows.
Eton is not responsible for producing 'the upper class' - if we all valued education then we would be prepared to pay taxes at the level which is spent on Eton on each student. We (and that is all us) have chosen not to. As a parent, I want the best for my children and if I can afford it, why would I not give them a head start by an excellent education?
We used to have grammar schools, but these were seen to be unfair. We now have comprehensives which do not seem to be able to achieve the same results, but meant that we did not end up with the poor education dolled out by the secondary modern's.
Perhaps part of the problem is that we are not prepared to pay our MPs an attractive salary. As such it means only those with another form of income can actually become an MP. If we want the best then it will cost.
Perhaps the question we should ask is why the cabinet is full of Old Etonions? Why have not other equally capable people chosen politics as a career? Part of this is the 'old boys club' but perhaps part is that Eton somehow manages to produce people who want to be involved in running the country
We need to accept some big hard facts. We have run out of money and somehow need to reduce our demand for it. We cannot keep the same level of benefits (and grow in benefits) without being able to pay for them. Add in the fact that we are all living longer and we need to budget for a life to 85+, more costly health care, a shrinking working population and it becomes a problem to which there is no answer, let alone an easy answer.
The easy solution is the blame the rich. They must be fault because they are rich and we should tax them into the ground. Therefore we have a class war! We are all in s**t together - the problem we have is that for people at the lower end of the income scale even a very small reduction has a huge impact.
As I said, there is probably not an answer - we probably don't even know the question we need to answer
TJ - my experience of scottish education in the 70s was a bit different to your description - I grew up in a fairly rough area of Aberdeen, and after Aberdeen Grammar was closed down, the only option left for my parents was a really sub-standard comprehensive. Back then, there was no option available but to go to the comprehensive for the catchment area you lived in. It was so bad, and the prospects for a good education were so poor, that my grandfather, who was a Socialist who firmly believed that good quality education was the route out of poverty for the working classes, helped them pay the fees to send me to Robert Gordon's College, the local merchant school.
Perhaps part of the problem is that we are not prepared to pay our MPs an attractive salary.
So, really quite attractive in comparison to the average UK salary, I'd say. And no way nearly as 'hard' a job as being a nurse, policeperson, carer of someone with disabilities, etc etc etc....
Being elected to Parliament is a great honour any citizen should be proud of. In fact, they should be doing the job because they want to serve their community and democracy, not for money. What they get is more than enough reward, and more than enough to afford them a decent lifestyle.
And no-one's stopping them earning a few quid on the side, that most if not all of them seem to have time for. I doubt many nurses etc have sufficient time to do so...
TJ - we can agree to differ. I quoted a very small part of his detailed analysis of the history of English education. So his comments may/may not be relevant to Scotland. Although having been educated in Scotland myself, I would argue that they are valid but, ho hum. The paper was part of a series that included the Provost of Eton. I was tempted to quote his conclusion as it addresses your own, but doubt that it would serve any purpose. He was probably wearing fancy dress and trashing some restaurant at the time!
An interesting take on the abolition of grammar schools was contained in a documentary by Andrew Neill, a product of them, on the BBC. I can't find it on the iplayer but it is well worth a watch if it is repeated.
There is not doubt something has gone wrong with social mobility as it has gone down, lack of educational opportunity could well be a cause and we need to work out how to fix this because it is in no one's interest (even the very rich). Without social mobility, economic growth suffers and if economic growth suffers, every one suffers including the very rich.
Having arrived in Aberdeenshire in the late 80's from the south of England. I saw in some respects no difference spread around comprehensives, but some grammar type schools. I was at Mackie Academy in Stonehaven and it wasn't what I had expected. But with hindsight I see that it was the key difference between The Scottish and English systems. In Scotland there was a higher percentage of schools that saw a classical education as essential to produce rounded people that could deal with any circumstance. But I could be wrong.
ditchjockey - I went to Hillpark comprehensive on the south side of Glasgow -main catchment areas darnley arden and carnwadrick three big ssha schemes, It was rough no doubt - but in that school and in Glasgow we had facilities second to none and available for all which was the key. Everybody got the same opportunities. As a geeky english lad I had a hard time at times - but the education could not have been bettered. we had superior facilities to the best of the Glasgow fee paying schools and motivated teachers
Teamhurtmore - my father was a high ranked educationalist and I value his opinions and that is what I have quoted. Its the people in the middle who suffer under a grammar / secondary modern system
sadmadalan
We do not have a proper comprehensive system now because of the false "choice agenda" that has led to the creation of ghetto schools - my old school amongst them
I went to a comprehensive, and subsequently graduated from Oxford. I despised the Bullingdon/"Piers Gav" brigade then - and I despise 'em even more now. So much so that I'm pouring my immense NHS salary into building a time machine, so I can go back and... change history.
Its more like maggots vs maggots.
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