cold blooded murder or righteous kill?
http://wikileaks.org/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-us-army-iraq-attack
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8603938.stm
and special forces digging bullets out of women they shot in afgahnistan
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/afghanistan/article7087637.ece
America, **** yeah. 
"Americans are imperialist **** who aren't really on the other side of the world to help the local people, shocker"
It's ok, they're doing it for our 'Freedom'.
It's not so much the f-ed up decision to fire on non-hostile individuals, it's the laughing and joking about it that really gets me.
'That'll teach 'em for bringing their kids to a battle'.
it's the laughing and joking about it that really gets me.
Actually I didn't find that particularly shocking.
Killing another human being in cold blood can't be a very easy thing to do - it's certainly not natural. So laughing and developing an attitude of callous indifference, must make it all a whole lot easier.
Can you imagine how it would be if they started to dwell on what it meant to wipe out another human being's life ?
If instead of laughing, they said, "My God, I've just killed someone" ?
They would seriously struggle to kill people ..... they just simply wouldn't be able to do their job.
Ok, I'm not going to try and justify any actions here, and none of us really know enough facts to say what happened, but perhaps a little devil's advocate:
On the first mission, they legitimatly engaged a hostile force. An RPG will take out an apache, so that's fair enough. A vehicle pulls up and retrieves the bodies. Bare in mind, these bodies are still armed. The apache engages the van. Shortly afterwards, the apache spots movement and guides ground forces to two children who are taken to hospital. I would imagine that anyone who had fired on children would feel awfull, and shifting the blame to the people that took them into harms way would be a natural reaction.
In the second case, you are told to enter a building believed to be a Taliban location. You go in, engage the policeman and his brother (no one has denied or refuted they were Taliban and armed). You're twitchy and just engaged the enemy when a noise causes you to turn and engage another target, which turns out to be a pregnant woman. You panic, realising you have shot an unarmed civilian, so you try to cover it up.
Now, I'm not saying that's how it went down. I'm not saying any of it was right, but whether you believe we should be involved in any of these conflicts, mistakes will be made. As in society, the US Army has sadists, people who make mistakes, inept soldiers and every other facet of human behaviour. I'm also not saying that these things should be thouroughly investigated, and where fault is found it should be dealt with accordingly.
Just makes you think a bit more about the human condition I think.
Hey here's a thought....they (the americans etc) should not have been in Iraq in the first place! Since when were they the World police!
Tree hits it on the head there, when you serve in the forces you do not have a choice where you end up and the situations you find yourself in are not of your choosing so your reactions are based on training, past incidents and instinct. Unlike a terrorist a soldier does not go out with the intent to kill and maim. He/she goes out with a mission statement that reflects the overall operation.
As far as celebrating hits and kills goes, i have found that to be bravado and adrenalin, after that wears off the reality hits.
Unlike a terrorist a soldier does not go out with the intent to kill and maim. He/she goes out with a mission statement that reflects the overall operation.
Oh well that's alright then.
Since when were they the World police!
I think they've been watching too much Star Trek....
anokdale is right, military personel do not have a choice where they go, they do have some influence on their actions of course, they do not have the luxury of always making a considered decision over a lengthy period of time and on-the-spot reactions to situations are the norm.
I've spent 18 yrs in the military, hence the "cdo" (commando) tag after my nickname and completed 5 op tours in Iraq/Afghan - I've never seen a soldier from any "coalition" force act in a cruel or unnecesssary fashion, most just want to help the locals get back to some sort of normality.
It would not be outside the realms of possibility for the Taliban to pretend to be policeman, or infact be policemen, how much do you think an Afghan policeman gets paid, how could he "improve" his incoming cashflow - might I suggest corruption.
There have been documented cases of mistreatment/torture and the individuals concerned were held to account and faced severe discipline.
I can't help thinking that some people get themselves worked up into a right state about things that they
a. Don't completely understand
b. Don't generally have access all the facts about
c. usually take massively out of context
d. Couldn't change anyway,
Go and ride your bikes...
markcdo - Thanks i did my 22 and remember Khandahar airport when it was just that, i find explaining the truth about Military work very difficult but not helped by a Government that is not too forthcoming about the situation especially with regards the AP etc, i remember them leaving the base 15 mins before we got attacked - every night !! good blokes not.
Anyway keep your head down Royal.
There have been documented cases of mistreatment/torture and the individuals concerned were held to account and faced severe discipline.I can't help thinking that some people get themselves worked up into a right state about things that they
a. Don't completely understand
b. Don't generally have access all the facts about
c. usually take massively out of context
d. Couldn't change anyway,Go and ride your bikes...
One of the reasons this story is so worrying is the reports from the US crew and statements afterwards suggested that the men killed had weapons and were firing also that the helicopter crew were at risk from those men. So it would appear they killed innocent men ( and wounded two children) and tried to cover up their mistake.
When I watched that video I saw innocent men killed by the military, What did you see with your 18 years experience and service see that us ignorant civilians clearly can't see?
Millions of dollars of training and the most advanced hardware of any army and they can't tell the difference between a SLR and an AK47...
indeed, from what i saw at the time they were mentioning rpgs etc it looked to me like a guy with a camera, it seemed to short to be an rpg (as far as i'm aware) and when he raised it to his face it looked like he was taking a photo.
What did you see with your 18 years experience and service see that us ignorant civilians clearly can't see?
Everything. You can see f*** all from the inside of a newspaper.
Hi Mark <waves>. You still at EOD or back at the sqn?
Everything. You can see f*** all from the inside of a newspaper.
What about on that video though, which is what we are talking about?
I notice all the military people seem to be sidestepping that one.
It's quite clearly a mistake. They are humans and do make them.
"One of the bits I found most disturbing was the helicopter gunner 'demanding' permission to 'Engage', like he was desperate to shoot someone. Like it's a game.
And the terminology: 'Target Engaged'. You mean, 'Person Killed'.
And certainly one of the most disturbing aspects is how much the 'enemy' are dehumanised, to the extent they become 'targets' in some grotesque shooting gallery. I suppose it makes it easier to kill, when the Human Being you're shooting at is merely an object, rather than a living, breathing individual with family just like yourself. This applies to both sides.
This particular incident isn't even as bad as many others. And I'm sure there are far more cases that go unreported, that are far worse.
The whole Iraq thing is a total mess.
I can't help thinking that some people get themselves worked up into a right state about things that they
a. Don't completely understand
b. Don't generally have access all the facts about
c. usually take massively out of context
d. Couldn't change anyway,
Are you talking about the British and American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan?
It's quite clearly a mistake. They are humans and do make them.
So why the cover-up?
I'm just a dumb civvie, but the video seemed pretty clear to me, and I'd be surprised if they didn't have access to a higher res version on the aircraft. Perhaps a case of them seeing what they wanted to see, considering they did come across as somewhat gun-ho.
things happen in battle rightly or wrongly , mistakenly or for a whole host of reasons. Unless you have been in a warzone you cant say how you would behave, you can say how you think you might like to behave but that counts for nowt when the time comes . Ive done things in battle i would do differently now with the benefit of hindsight and a few more years behind me but thats just life. Human beings are erratic and strange at the best of times and more so when in a war and not sat in a comfy chair at home
Anti-American propaganda 
The guys had rpg and ak47s ... they werent out to do a bit of fishing were they? the reporters knew the risks when they hooked up with them. Sad, but avoidable.
"Americans are imperialist **** who aren't really on the other side of the world to help the local people, shocker"
Ernie Lynch deems all people of one country guilty of the actions of a few shocker!
Seems as if your as prejudiced and as narrow minded as the people you are so quick to condemn. I'm sure that doesn't reflect you're considered opinion and is just a reaction to the horrific events in those videos.
Blacklug, did you watch the video? I'm pretty sure the "RPG" was actually an SLR camera with a nice lens.
pedalhead, that's what I thought but no confirmation from anyone.
Sh1t article from the guardian as per usual.
What did you see with your 18 years experience and service see that us ignorant civilians clearly can't see?Everything. You can see f*** all from the inside of a newspaper.
Hi Mark <waves>. You still at EOD or back at the sqn?
Actually you see what your commanding officers let you see. Luckily for the rest of us we get to see "everything", due to the bravery of reporters like the ones killed in that video and the work from people like those at wikileaks.
Anti-American propaganda
No, it's actually a video from an American helicopter, that is being presented in a fairly objective manner, along with certain facts.
It's called journalism.
This is Propaganda:
backhander - why is it a shit guardian article?
The RPG call looked to me due to the camera lens sticking out behind the wall and the chap holding it peering round. At that moment it did look like it could have been the very end of an RPG7, but by the time the helo had circled round it was pretty clear that it wasn't. Unfortunately by that time the crews seemed convinced that the folks on the ground were enemy targets and that was affecting what they thought they saw. That was clear when the van arrived - they were thinking "more enemy" when most of us were thinking it more likely that it was an attempted evac of someone injured. The helo crews saying that they could see the folks on the ground picking up guns in order to get clearance for weapons free is the most disturbing aspect I think, as there wasn't anything on the tape that could even be misinterpreted as that. We're not hyped up on adrenalin or (for example) grieving for a comrade who'd been killed or injured a few days before however - and the stress involved in that sort of thing would definitely have affected those that were there.
I personally don't have an issue with the forces dehumanising the enemy as I think it's necessary. The last thing you want in combat situations is your forces hesitating while they wonder if the guys they need to be shooting at have wives and families etc.
BTW I'm also ex-military but (thankfully) was never in a real combat situation.
TBH I don't find the video that shocking. It is indicative of a pretty gung ho attitude and I think the detachment of being in a helicopter with all the technology etc probably does make it feel a bit like playing a video game and too easy to take lives.
It's the fact that it was covered up/denied that's really worrying - how many other instances like this get covered up too?
Actually you see what your commanding officers let you see. Luckily for the rest of us we get to see "everything", due to the bravery of reporters like the ones killed in that video and the work from people like those at wikileaks.
yeah right.
Never served have you roper?
If you think you see more than the boots on the ground, then you are very very naive.
Blacklug, did you watch the video? I'm pretty sure the "RPG" was actually an SLR camera with a nice lens.
Did you not see the RPG, Don't look at the guys in white shirts and look at the guys in the background. Definetly an RPG one of them is carrying.
Sure, some of the guys were carrying weapons, that was clearly obvious. But at least one was carrying a camera. There's two ways to approach this scenario - one might suggest that anyone in the gang of men was a threat (maybe taking photos of targets?) and kill them all. The other might suggest that the military should exercise some caution and restraint and only take out those who are clearly a threat.
There are also a number of complicating factors:
1) Are the crew out to take out any threat officially, or just making up a firefight to get some points scored.
2) No-one in their right mind should purposefully drive a van with kids in, into a firefight with a gunship. Regardless of injured people, you have to be a complete idiot to risk your kids.
3) The photographers know the risks when dealing with such people. Maybe they can expect to be given the benefit of the doubt, but likewise they should expect to be part of a target if seen with the enemy.
4) When analysing these clips it's easy to overlay your own interpretation, very hard to actually know what was going on and possibly what was more visible and had produced teh context under which this happened.
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