I know the answer to this question but I’m curious what other people think… without the aid of google please.

The reason I ask is that the government has just announced/imposed a shed-load of changes to the contract junior doctors work to in the NHS in England. These changes are unpopular with docs for a variety of reasons, not just to do with pay but also things like staffing levels and patient safety, and the issue may or may not appear in the press in the near future, so I’m curious what the non-medic population think / know about the issue.

starting on 40k at a guess?

Given the training, responsibility and long hours I’d say more than fair/

How junior? My guess:

First year out of uni (still training?) £20-25K
Second year £30k+

Genuinely no idea. Highly skilled job that involve a lot of training, but is a job that people want to do so supply would be high. Long hours and high stress but good career progression with long term prospects. Public sector so lower basic with good benefits. Lets say £25k, maybe a touch less.

I would have guessed £30k and a shed load of hours for a number of years before progressing to serioulsy good money.

Straight out of education, I’d guess at around £40 to £45k.

When I was at uni I was dating a medical student. When I graduated 2 years before her I made an informal bet that I’d be earning more than her by the time she graduated.

It wasn’t a hard bet to win back then. It would be even easier now. When you boil it down to an hourly rate (actual hours worked rather than the contract) it’s much less than people think it is.

starting on 40k at a guess?

😆

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/

so supply would be high

Do you read the news?

First year out of uni (still training?) £20-25K

Do doctors get paid while training?

35k when fully qualified at a guess.

FY1 – £22k ish basic.

The other important question is “what do you think a Junior Doctor actually is?”

Hint: it is not, as some people assume, someone fresh out of medical school.

My missus graduated in the late 90s and has been practising since. She is still a “junior doctor”.

22k?

They should become tube drivers…

Do doctors get paid while training?

They never stop training.

At least not till Consultant level anyway, and they still have mandatory training requirements.

Ummm is it about £22636 pa?

*Google may have been involved in coming up with this figure.

*Google may have been involved in coming up with this figure.

Spoilsport

From that NHS link

For a doctor in specialist training the basic salary is between £30,002 and £47,175.

If this is like most government pay scales, no doctor would ever reach the £47 max (no such thing as annual increments). They would more likely bump along the bottom until they moved on to a more lucrative post.

The other important question is “what do you think a Junior Doctor actually is?”

The other other important question is “How much do juniors in NZ / Oz / Canada get paid?”

Fortunately they have subsidised staff restaurant, and no spare waking hours in which to spend their earnings, in which case 22K is an absolute fortune.

Wheareas i have half an hour for lunch and a nearby waitrose, plus time off in the evenings for kids and a life and hobbies, so despite earning substantially more than 22K I still haven’t got 2 farthings to rub together.

The lucky bastards.

(no such thing as annual increments)

There used to be – they’ve been scrapped in the new contract.

Fortunately they have subsidised staff restaurant

In my girlfriend’s hospital they added a new wing and flogged concession stands to Costa and Subway which are now forcing the, very reasonable and not half bad, canteen out of business. Hooray!

I honestly had no idea that the pay was that poor and they say teachers have it bad.

The other important question is “what do you think a Junior Doctor actually is?”

Excellent point. I’d be guessing that a junior dr is anyone who isnt a consultant or a GP. Could be wrong though.

For a doctor in specialist training the basic salary is between £30,002 and £47,175.

Specialist training is about 2-3 years beyond junior doctor levels.

The other other important question is “The other other important question is “How much do juniors in NZ / Oz / Canada get paid?””

The much more significant question is, “How much better do juniors in NZ / Oz / Canada get treated?”

I’ll give you a clue. Much, much better.

Yup – you have to really want to be a doctor to be a doctor.

Lifetime potential earnings huge though.

In fairness, newly qualified doctors are more of a liability than an asset for their first couple of years at least… (tongue partially in cheek 😉 )

Excellent point. I’d be guessing that a junior dr is anyone who isnt a consultant or a GP. Could be wrong though.

Spot on. But most people hear the term “Junior Doctor” and think of it like “Junior Apprentice” or something similar.

When the gov talk about cutting Junior Doctor’s pay by 30%, they don’ just mean the spotty faced oiks who only graduated a month ago. They include people who have been in the job over a decade, who have been rotated around to a different hospital every six months, often moving house as a result.

My mates just qualified to become a paramedic and his starting is about £22 I think.

I’ve a vague idea it averages £35k?

I only know that because it’s the only degree that has a higher starting salary than Process/Chemical Engineering (take that dentists!).

they say teachers have it bad.

My other half is a teacher and I will argue all day long that she has it worse than junior doctors.

Lifetime potential earnings huge though.

There is that. We work with lots of docs & consultants and they are not afraid of splashing the cash around very liberally and mostly have very lavish lifestyles/cars/houses etc.

Should get a job driving a train

For trainee train drivers – during the first year of intensive training the reference salary is GBP 24,559 per annum. As a newly qualified driver the reference salary will be GBP 34,129, after 6 months GBP 36,447 and after 9 months GBP 39,148. On successful completion of all training and probation the reference salary is GBP 43,212 per annum.

https://ce0071li.webitrent.com/ce0071li_webrecruitment/wrd/run/ETREC105GF?USESSION=99F37F0C5D3E11E5A4F3F5F721FCA5F5&WVID=5742590010&LANG=USA

they say teachers have it bad.

hmmnn yes. i know two teachers – one works ‘part time’ which equates to about 40 hours p/w. My SiL works ‘full time’ which ends up being about 70 hours p/w*. Wouldn’t take their jobs for all the tea in china

*And usually if they complain, they’re told that they obviously don’t work smart enough.

Good point made there OP…

Straight out of education, I’d guess at around £40 to £45k.

I bloody wish(ed).

Unless you’re in the armed forces, you get paid zero pounds during your training (5/6/7 years at uni).
You then become a ‘junior doctor’. The basic is about £22k ish, with ‘banding’ on top of that.
Banding is a supplement up to 50% (or it was when I was a nipper) depending on how many evenings and weekends and nights you did.
This banding made the pay up to about £30k on average (as lots of jobs are unbanded.

So, if you were a ‘9-5’ junior doc, you’d only get £22k.
However, in my day it was actually “if you were a 7-1900′ doc” as that was the unbanded hours. (mon-fri).
NOW it’s looking like it’ll be “if you are a 7-2200 doc, mon – sat” you’ll be unbanded.

I don’t think, given 5-7 years of training, with a debt of (probably) £40k, that £22k per annum is good money.

In my day…when you progressed year after year, your pay went up. I mean, we were still daft doctors, but slightly less daft than the year before.
Now it’s looking like your scale will only increase when you become a specialist trainee (after 2-3 years) and again at registrar level (3-6 years depending on pro rata working life).

Sounds crap TBH. Nice one Jezza.

DrP

They do get additional loadings on top of the Basic Salary.

These are dependent on how many hours outside the European Working Time Directive their contract is for, and also how many of those hours are “unsociable”.

The new contract is trying to redefine the plain (i.e. not “unsociable”) hours to be 7am till 10pm! Including weekends.

Because clearly leaving for work at 6am and getting back home after 11pm isn’t remotely “unsociable” is it? I’m sure the kids will wait up. 👿

There is that. We work with lots of docs & consultants and they are not afraid of splashing the cash around very liberally and mostly have very lavish lifestyles/cars/houses etc.

I would guess that there are always many more junior doctors than high paid GPs/consultants. So as a junior doctor there is no guarantee you’ll ever be able to move into a more lucrative posts and chances are you stay poorly paid all your career. (i may be wrong though)

These are dependent on how many hours outside the European Working Time Directive their contract is for, and also how many of those hours are “unsociable”.

The new contract is trying to redefine the plain (i.e. not “unsociable”) hours to be 7am till 10pm! Including weekends.

Because clearly leaving for work at 6am and getting back home after 11pm isn’t remotely “unsociable” is it? I’m sure the kids will wait up

I don’t pretend to know how it works, but surely you wouldn’t work 7am-10pm every day? You’d have blown the working time rules in 3.5 days 😯

you get paid zero pounds during your training (5/6/7 years at uni)

If only. Negative 9k these days.

On our first day at medical school we were told that our training to FY2 would cost the NHS 200k each. Given that, why on earth they’re trying to get us all to emigrate I’ve no idea.

This just popped up on my facebook:

https://www.change.org/p/british-medical-association-strike-action?recruiter=40415273&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=des-lg-share_petition-no_msg&fb_ref=Default