My recent issues with a Ti BB and non-replaceable bearings got me thinking about just how ‘Green’ cycling actually is. Seems that increasing numbers of components are not serviceable, and require an entire new unit when one part such as the bearings wears out. I’ve got stuff lying about like old forks for which there are no longer any parts available, and I’m sure other STWers must have some bits of otherwise perfectly useable kit that’s rendered useless for the same reason.

And then you have Shimano changing standards every few years in order to force people to have to buy new stuff, as older kit simply won’t be serviceable. The claim is that it’s ‘innovation’ and progress’, but in the Real World, any actual improvements are really quite tiny, and the downside is loads of now obsolete useless kit.

In my 20+ years of riding MTBs, stuff like brake and suspension technology has developed and brought about improvements, that’s fair enough. I have never noticed any difference between a 5 and 4-bolt crank though, stuff like that. What I have noticed is a decrease in actual quality of materials and manufacture of stuff at particular price points. XT now is of a lower quality than old Deore. And a shed load more spensive, relatively, even allowing for inflation.

I understand the need to make profit, I understand the need to innovate and improve, but surely this can be achieved at a lower environmental cost? The damage done during the extraction of raw materials is immense, and the more we consume, the more we need materials.

How long does anyone keep their bikes for these days? My oldest bike is just ten years old. Yet that seems ancient these days; people (speshly on here) seem to want to change their bikes every couple of years, for not discernible reason than wanting new shiny thing. In my 4 years or so of riding with other STWers, I’ve seen some go through several bikes. They’re still crap riders though…

Ultimately it’s us what drives the market, but this lust for new stuffs is costing the planet. Surely it’s irresponsible to keep consuming needlessly, regardless of wether or not you can afford it.

So, what’s the answer? Buy less bikes? Make bike bits more serviceable and recyclable? Demand that bike companies stop introducing new standards every bloody few months? Demand more spare parts to fit older stuffs? Introduce global legislation to curb excessive use of raw materials?

So, cyclists often go on about being more ‘Green’ than others, but truth is we’re probbly just as bad if not worse!

Oh I dunno….

Mountain biking isn’t a particularly green activity.

Unless you ride trails from your door then most of us are making extra car journeys to take part in a leisure activity.

Commuting by bike is pretty green though. Iven if you take into account replacement parts you are still having a much lower impact on you environment then you would do by driving

I was thinking this on Sunday – running from home seems far greener than cycling – the amount of kit involved is so much less.

Probably the greenest bike is a 1950s Raleigh (or its contemporaries) with a 3 speed Sturmey Archer hub and full enclosed chain.

Still repairable and very rideable.

I cycle for fun rather than some guardianista crucade, so don’t care.

As for changeing standards, with the exception of front mechs I don’t think ow’ts changed on my bikes since 1.1/8 headsets came in.

OK the BB is now external but it’s still threaded, the gears are now 2×10, but the 9s stuff had reached the end of it’s usabel life, the 10s cassette will actualy fit onto my 80’s touring bike hubs if I wanter 10speed friction shift!

Not many standards have actualy rendered everythig obsolete? Even giant’s 1.25 headset fits in a normal 1.1/8 headtube )or was it 44mm?).

OK the BB is now external but it’s still threaded, the gears are now 2×10, but the 9s stuff had reached the end of it’s usabel life, the 10s cassette will actualy fit onto my 80’s touring bike hubs if I wanter 10speed friction shift!

No you’re missing the point…

Can you still buy decent quality new 7/8speed shifters? If something breaks inside your expensive 10-speed shifter, can you buy a tiny replacement part? If some of the cogs on your cassette aren’t actually that worn, can you just replace the worn ones separately? If a hubshell on your Shimano hubs cracks, can you replace just the hubshell? Can you buy replacement bushings for your 10-year (or older) old forks what still have loads of life left in them if only you could get replacement bushings? Can you get a replacement cradle bit for your seatpost what snapped but the rest of it’s fine? A new cage bit for your rear mech after it got bent bit the rest of it’s ok?

See what I mean? Fair point about the BB threads though; at leas that hasn’t changed. But how long are tapered steerers going to be around? What if in 10 years from now your frame’s still fine but no-one makes headsets for it any more? Or you need a new shock but they’re extinct and there are none available?

But will anyone care, or will they have ditched the frame for something shiny and new?

Probably the greenest bike is a 1950s Raleigh (or its contemporaries) with a 3 speed Sturmey Archer hub and full enclosed chain.

Still repairable and very rideable.

Hmm, good luck finding decent quality cottered cranks and spares for the SA hub…. 😉

Good example though; such things were built to last. In those days, bike tech advanced very slowly, but it was possible to get a 30, 40, 50 year or older bike sorted out no problem. Cos things fitted everything. bikes lasted far longer with regular care and maintenance.

Progress for progress’ sake?

I struggle with long sentences but a lot of cycling isn’t green at all. How many miles do people drive to trail centres? Check out how many support vehicles the TdF has. It’s only green if used as a proper form of transport rather than a leisure pursuit (I’m currently averaging more transport mileage on my bike than in a car, so doing my little bit).

I struggle with long sentences

If you did, then you might actually understand what I’m on about, rather than going off on a tangent of your own, and ending up looking a bit daft… 😉

The answer is it depends. Buying stuff that is known to be reliable / rebuildable secondhand and not driving to ride it can be fairly green. Keeping up with all the latest trends an driving to ride it ain’t

No Jeremy I’m not on about driving to places to ride, that’s irrelevant in this discussion. It’s about the whole cycle industry and it’s impact on the environment, and our part in that. We the consumers drive the industry yet this in turn causes more environmental damage etc etc.

So, something that has a ‘Green’ image, actually isn’t very Green at all. Yet this does not in any way stop the industry from using that to encourage higher consumption. and the more people who cycle/buy bikes, the worse it gets, not better, as the industry might like us to think.

The increasingly disposable nature of everything, including bicycles, just adds to the problem.

How can we curb this?

I think the best way to try to make your personal need for bike stuff greener is to buy as much as you can second hand. Reduces waste and the manufacture of new stuff (I suppose). Otherwise all highly engineered and manufactured stuff from the other side of the world is not ecologically sound. Its a compromise at the end of teh day I guess

Any consumer industry isn’t inherently green and this obviously includes cycling.

That said, it’s mitigated to some extent by the fact that many people who do buy bikes end up riding them around/to work which I’m sure goes some way to offsetting that – to what extent of course significantly depends on how much car mileage they avoid. Oh and how much extra non-local food they eat 🙂

How can we curb this?

For a start I’d suggest you get off the internet. All that electricity you’re wasting and causing others to waste by reading your brain farts. 😉

A while ago Jeep had some adverts about their wrangler and how it was good for the environment.

Despite it not having any new features, their reasonable argument was something along the lines that it was a tried and tested design with long service intervals thanks to not that high performance and that due to not having had massive amounts of R&D, they’ve saved lots of eco-points.
I’m always amused by hybrid battery cars and them going on about green credentials, when ignoring the massive issues with the batteries, they’ve also built brand new factories just to make them, spent massive amounts of carbon in researching how to make them and all the silly fiddly stuff.

If the government really wanted to be ‘green’ and help the global environment, I suspect instead of paying a grand to car dealers to sell new cars, they’d have helped people keep old cars on the road, which often only need a couple of components and some maitenance to keep going, instead of being crushed and shipped to china, where they then use a lot more fossil fuels melting them and turning what’s left in to bits of a new car.

Can you still buy decent quality new 7/8speed shifters? If something breaks inside your expensive 10-speed shifter, can you buy a tiny replacement part? If some of the cogs on your cassette aren’t actually that worn, can you just replace the worn ones separately? If a hubshell on your Shimano hubs cracks, can you replace just the hubshell? Can you buy replacement bushings for your 10-year (or older) old forks what still have loads of life left in them if only you could get replacement bushings? Can you get a replacement cradle bit for your seatpost what snapped but the rest of it’s fine? A new cage bit for your rear mech after it got bent bit the rest of it’s ok?

I can’t buy replacement parts for 7s shifters either. Infact I’d probably struggle to buy 7s shifters full stop! I’ve not broen a shifter in 10 years anyway, they’re pretty reliable, and newer/more expensive ones seem more reliable/better made than that was anyway.

Replace a hubshell? You’re telling me you’d dismantle the wheel, then rebuild old spokes, rims, freehub ad axle onto a new shell?

The only 10yr old forks I have are ‘zocchis, which don’t need serviceing anyway. And yes spares are available from windwave and CRC.

I’m not saying sealed units/non serviceable items are a good thing, I generaly buy servicable kit given the choice. But I’d also like stuff that works for ages without serviceing then gets binned. For example my new RS sektors are more ‘green’ than my old RS Dukes, simply becasue I suspect they will last much much longer!

Interesting point, Geebus. And likewise, if bike manufacturers kept broadly to the same designs, and developed more serviceable components, then there would be less ‘wastage’. Of course, this woon’t suit the industry as there would be less need to manufacture stuffs, and of course less work for employees. Etc.

I have nothing against innovation and development, but I do feel a lot of new stuff isn’t that innovative, not does it offer any Real World performance advantage. certainly not to 99.99999999% of end users. I mean, 11 instead of 10 speed? Why? Other than to make people want to buy new stuffs?

I know it’s a complex area, but I feel that the need to try to protect the environment should be more important than the ‘need’ to make huge profits (which ultimately benefit relatively very few people).

I can’t buy replacement parts for 7s shifters either.

XT 7-speed thumbshifters were very simple and very durable and lasted a lot longer than the STi units that replaced them. But yeah, shifters generally aren’t user serviceable. Older stuff you could get new washers and springs and bits for. You just can’t do that with most of Shimano’s offerings, even the top end stuff.

Replace a hubshell? You’re telling me you’d dismantle the wheel, then rebuild old spokes, rims, freehub ad axle onto a new shell?

Yep. Why not? saves throwing all the other perfectly good parts away, dun’t it? You can do such a thing with Hope stuff…

The only 10yr old forks I have are ‘zocchis, which don’t need serviceing anyway. And yes spares are available from windwave and CRC.

True, ‘Zocchis are good. I’ve got two Manitou forks sitting here and all the need are new seals which are no longer available. One’s about 10 years old, the other only about 6 or 7. It’s a shame, cos they could be sorted and bunged on someone’s bike.

I went down the servicable route with my bike as I generally have little or no spare cash lying around.

Hope BB, headset, hubs and brakes.
Rockshox forks.

Cranks are a different matter. My old Hone ones were ok but they were made of hard cheese. My old bike that the girlfriend uses has got old deore cranks and rings on and that thing has seen many a Cannock chase winter and been regularly used for commuting. The drive train is still in tip top condition. I think its eight years old now.

Simple fact is that if there is cash to made then the environmental the issues of sourcing the raw material will go out of the window. Cars are a classic example of this. Why can’t I get a new engine a gear box dropped into my old motor without it costing the same price as a new one.?

Why can’t I get a new engine a gear box dropped into my old motor without it costing the same price as a new one.?

You can, it’ll be about £3k though for something relatively normal, still a long way off £15k for the car. But then there’s the 10,000 other bits of the car that are just as worn out.

And why would you want a new engine, just rebuild the old one?

Yes this is bloody annoying.

Was cheaper for me to get a complete SLX chainset than buy 3 replacement chainrings.

Also replacement stanchions are approx £250. Not far of a complete new pair of forks.

Expect that 9 speed stuff will go the same way as 7/8 soon 👿

The cycling world is just reflecting the consumerist society we live in and shows no signs of slowing down.

I find the constant onslaught of new products, standards, ‘colourways’ and miniscule improvements a bit distasteful.
The mags overflow with advertising and instructions on the latest trends to follow and must have head tube angles/fork/stem lenghts so many buy into it and we all lose sight of the fun- the real reason we do it.

It of course is completely possible to run a bike without playing the consumerist game

Is it though, Jezza; is it?

Was cheaper for me to get a complete SLX chainset than buy 3 replacement chainrings.

Also replacement stanchions are approx £250. Not far of a complete new pair of forks.

It’s things like this. So, you buy a new chainset then you have perfectly good crank arms sat doing nowt. wasteful. Why aren’t the chainrings a good bit cheaper, to encourage us to replace less and save on wasted materials?

Still, I think I’d rather buy new rings than an entire chainset I don’t need. I’ve got a Deore XT c/set, M737, it’s great quality and sweet as a nut. No need to replace. but what happens when 5-bolt rings become unavailable? i’m left with a perfectly serviceable part but then forced to buy new just to keep the bike running. for no real reason I can see other than to generate profit for the bike industry. Yeah, I know they need to keep going, but if they continued to make compatible bits, then I’d still be buying stuffs.

Making a new chainset more economically viable than replacing rings isn’t doing the planet any good. It’s just about greed. Which ultimately serves no-one in the long run…

Yup – it sure is. last time I bought a new chainring – this year – it was £11. Deore steel. Will last a while as well.

its all about sensible buying.

all my brakes are hope – all ought second hand, all using the same master cylinder, all rebuildable with new parts whenever needed.

Drivetrains – I have collected a load of broken XTR rear mechs – oh look – spares for the one on my bike. 🙂 Deore steel inner and middle rings, no outer ring etc etc. Alfine hubs.

I have one mountain bike.

My commuter bike is basically my old mountain bike. Everything on it is a hand me down to myself except chain/cassettes. I like that.

Fortunately all the bits are compatible ie. mechs, seatposts, etc. That would’nt be the case if i bought into every new standard.
It could be argued it is’nt the ‘right’ bike for my journeys to work but it works for me.

Expect that 9 speed stuff will go the same way as 7/8 soon

You mean widely available but people will still winge about it?

If you did, then you might actually understand what I’m on about, rather than going off on a tangent of your own, and ending up looking a bit daft…

Wrote my comments before yours appeared – sorry. Ignoring the OP, not you if that makes you feel any better (time limited day due to need to sort out Halloween decorations, hence getting my fix of posting without feeling the need to read anybody else’s half-baked opinions 😉 ).

As the gear gets more technical and lighter than say basic and practical, its inevitably more difficult to repair, Ive just had to replace my XTR rear mech with a new one, as a small lug on the b axle assemble snapped, maybe if it was XT it would have been stronger ..!

today at work, Madison told me they could not supply a £3 spoke nipple for a Shimano 550R rear 700c wheel, because it was “discontinued”…

the customer had brought the wheel into our shop 3 weeks ago with a broken spoke, we’ve had a mission getting the right spoke (a straight blade Shimano design), third time lucky they sent us the right spoke, but the spoke does not come with a nipple.

my customer cannot find this nipple anywhere else either, because the shops all buy from Madison

because of this missing £3 nipple, my customer is now faced with dumping a perfectly serviceable / fixable wheel, and buying a brand new one 🙁

we’ll all probably end up riding British made steel frame fixies with recycled tires and fully serviceable hubs / bottom bracket once the economy truly goes down the toilet and people revert to riding bicycles purely for transport, rather than “fun” in the woods…

Thats not an issue with cycling – thats an issue with the way shimano run their business. Its not in shimanos interests to make spares available.

Is it a special nipple? why can the old one not be reused?

Use standard parts and spares are not an issue

I always wonder how people come to the conclusion that cycling is Green. Cycling as an activity isn’t green unless you’re replacing a journey you would have made in a more environmentally impacting way. It takes a huge amount of energy to extract a metal from its ore, cast and/or machine it into a bicycle part and ship it to its future owner. Steel isn’t too bad but aluminium has to be extracted using electricity and titanium is even worse.

But nearly every part of a bike (carbon ones not included) can be recycled and, while you’re riding your bike, you’re not doing more environmentally damaging things. Although you will need to replace the calories you burn, and food production is one of the most environmentally damaging things on the planet. 😉