what boggled my mind was guns n liquor stores (this was in new england)

one half of the shop booze, the other half guns, what could possibly go wrong?
of course you had to be 21 to buy beer, but 18 to buy a shotgun or rifle!

Had the usual conversation re Uk / USA with a guy in New York and as expected turned to guns (he was carrying a Heckler and Koch something or other).

He mentioned how the Uk seemed to excel at knife crime but he did accept that it was in general only possible to stab one person at a time and from where he was sitting, it wasn’t possible to stab all the folk up to 200m away without moving…

I had to accept that “the good guy with a gun would shoot the bad guy with a knife” … where does it go from here… ?

Did the accident happen at Burgers and Bullets ? There is a comment on their FB page suggesting it might have ..

On the contrary, I think the standard response from the NRA in these situations is that we need to arm people more.

Yes, + an argument for better training.

Whatever the pro-vs-anti lobby views are I’m sure all would agree that in this instance there was a complete failure in protocol. Either it wasn’t implemented or else non-existent. I hope the place has been closed down immediately.

*Edit – Yes, according to reports the range is called ‘Bullets and Burgers’. Am I alone in grimacing at their branding and logos? Looks like a horribly unironic reworking of a postmodern tarantino grindhouse film poster. The brain turns to cheese.

He mentioned how the Uk seemed to excel at knife crime

Though not by a huge amount, really?

Did the accident happen at Burgers and Bullets ?

No, “Last Stop” in Arizona according to the report on the BBC.

They also have a video of the guy teaching the girl to fire the uzi moments before he was killed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946

Whatever the pro-vs-anti lobby views are I’m sure all would agree that in this instance there was a complete failure in protocol. Either it wasn’t implemented or else non-existent. I hope the place has been closed down immediately.

The protocol being about not giving machine guns to 9 year old, that and not giving machine guns to any member of the public.

The Thin Blue Line – Firearms debate
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Fc9ONu8yU[/video]

D.I. Grim: You’re supposed to ask questions to find out who’s a suitable person to own a gun.

Inspector Fowler: That’s right. And surely the first question must be, ‘does that person wish to own a gun?’.

D.I. Grim: Well of course.

Inspector Fowler: And if the answer to that is ‘yes’, then clearly that person is not a suitable person to have one.

I had to accept that “the good guy with a gun would shoot the bad guy with a knife” … where does it go from here… ?

It ends up with this:

“The lady didn’t run as fast as the man, so I shot her in the back twice,” Mr Greer told a local television station following the break-in.

“She says, ‘Don’t shoot me, I’m pregnant… I’m going to have a baby,’ and I shot her anyway,” he added.

Californian man shoots pregnant burgular

Killing it:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqWad73BGPI[/video]

How truly bizarre that we can actually discuss this issue which occurred over 3000 miles away in a foreign land yet when a young mother is gunned down on a London street not one whisper from the STW Mob.

How truly bizarre that we can actually discuss this issue which occurred over 3000 miles away in a foreign land yet when a young mother is gunned down on a London street not one whisper from the STW Mob.

I think we’d all be agreed that was a bad thing?

What’s amazing in the London case was that the same gun has been used in several shootings:

Although no weapons have been recovered from the scene of murder, police revealed the Mac-10 has been used in a number of crimes.

In 2009 it was used in two shootings in the West Midlands, with two people serving 20-year prison sentences in relation to its use.

In 2012, the same weapon was linked to a shooting in Kingsgate Place, close to Messina Avenue.

Last year the gun was used in a shooting at the Pool Crest Snooker club on Kilburn High Road.

Which must show how rare guns are in the UK?

I thought we had discussed that cheekyboy? Did you have more to say on the matter?

Odd. She seemed to have a good stance.

Flipping it onto full auto was probably not the best idea.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfMzK7QwfrU[/video]

I had to accept that “the good guy with a gun would shoot the bad guy with a knife” … where does it go from here… ?

Well they might think that they are all expert marksmen but the reality is that even people trained as highly as the new york police only hit their target about 18% of the time during a gun fight. It’s fallacy put foward by gun advocates that has no basis in reality.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27892820

This simple fact is that in the US if you carry a gun, you are more likely to be shot and killed, and the same is true of those who carry knives in the UK in that they are more likely to be stabbed.

Before anybody asks, no, these do not take into account justifiable homicide and other “acceptable shootings”, nor do murders for that matter:

Nor race, color or geographic location.

Anyone trying to make a point about guns and America is probably ignoring the race and poverty aspects, but don’t worry about that. Most stw-frequenting detractors of other countries have probably not been too far from their IT support desk to worry about it.

I thought we had discussed that cheekyboy? Did you have more to say on the matter?

I didnt realise that we had discussed the kilburn murder!

The UK may not be as good as killing each other with guns but they sure are having a good crack at ignoring the molesting of their own children. Developed country? Really? People in glass houses….

Anyone trying to make a point about guns and America is probably ignoring the race and poverty aspects, but don’t worry about that

By which I assume you mean that in common with pretty much all other crime, rich white people are less likely to be victims and, if the press is anything to go by, likley to be able to kill a poor black person with apparent imputnity?

He mentioned how the Uk seemed to excel at knife crime

Though not by a huge amount, really?

Probably technically true from figures but his perception from what was reported on news programmes. Sadly after Jimmy Saville and the latest revelation on Rotherham, the perception may be that we are a nation of peadophiles.. but that is for another thread perhaps.

Chilling bit of video knowing what happened after it stopped. Easy to see how the gun recoil lifts it into the face of the instructor… sadly, he probably will be responsible for his own death, looking at that.

Also maybe strengthens the weapons training lobby…

I had to accept that “the good guy with a gun would shoot the bad guy with a knife” … where does it go from here… ?

Well they might think that they are all expert marksmen but the reality is that even people trained as highly as the new york police only hit their target about 18% of the time during a gun fight. It’s fallacy put foward by gun advocates that has no basis in reality.

Absolutely. After the cinema shooting (during the Batman premier IIRC) someone came out with the ‘a bad guy with a gun can only stop be stopped by a good guy with a gun’ line. But can you imagine 50 panicked amatuers firing into the darkness of a cinema, all trying to shoot the bad guy with a gun. I’d imagine in those situations a good guy with a gun looks a lot like a bad guy to a Rambo wannabe.

And as for this from the ‘trained professionals’ in New Yoik: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Empire_State_Building_shooting

“When confronted by the two officers, Johnson raised his weapon, but did not fire. The officers fired a total of 16 rounds, killing Johnson and injuring nine bystanders”

Given the 18% claim above, you’d expect 3 of the 16 rounds to hit the shooter. So 9 out of the remaining 13 rounds (70%!) hit innocent bystanders.

Well they might think that they are all expert marksmen but the reality is that even people trained as highly as the new york police only hit their target about 18% of the time during a gun fight. It’s fallacy put foward by gun advocates that has no basis in reality.

I was going to say the same thing. You’d likely end up with a few more people dead or injured, and the guy with the knife might or might not be one of them.

By which I assume you mean that in common with pretty much all other crime, rich white people are less likely to be victims and, if the press is anything to go by, likley to be able to kill a poor black person with apparent imputnity?

Partially, yes. Also, young black urban males shot young black urban males and old white rural males shoot themselves. Broadly, but that’s what the gun death statistics show.

And young white males murder children in schools. Don’t forget that key demographic.

How bad would the UK be if we had free access to guns as they do in the US?

As Michael Moore points out they have just as many guns in Canada, and indeed in Switzerland.

This story is truely terrible and as posted before not just for the friends and family of the guy killed but for the little girl.

Which must show how rare guns are in the UK?

In my teens I could have got a gun quit easily , £400 bought you a loaded hand gun.
You had no choice in what gun you got and did not come with extra rounds .
The idea being you ether bought it to use and would dispose of it straight away or you bought it to keep but if used would be disposed of.

And the gun would be clean as in if caught with it you would be possession but not up for a past crime that may have been commited with it.

That was a long time ago and would have no idea where to get one now. But I’m am sure I could probably find out if it tried.

And I could join a Uzi shootin club with my 11 year old down the local community centre. It’s exactly the same here, yeah.

What’s amazing in the London case was that the same gun has been used in several shootings:

Yeah, they get rented (by arseholes).

[Quote] those who carry knives in the UK in that they are more likely to be stabbed. [/quote]

Because those who carry knives are more likely to put themselves in a position whereby they are at risk of being stabbed? If you hang around the wrong area of a major city at night time, you’re increasing your own chances.

[Quote]How truly bizarre that we can actually discuss this issue which occurred over 3000 miles away in a foreign land yet when a young mother is gunned down on a London street not one whisper from the STW Mob.[/quote]

The incident in london is awful; no one will dispute that. However, the incident came about as a result of a crime being commited, and there will be a legal process carried out to enact justice. This incident in North America has come about (as far as we know) quite within the bounds of law. The fact that a 9YO child can legally have access to a military weapon, albeit under (inadequate) supervision, is the most disturbing part of this story, in my opinion.

bails – Member
And young white males murder children in schools. Don’t forget that key demographic.
POSTED 3 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

That is fruitcakes going postal, that is when people with issues have access to leagaly held firearms.
Which is why we banned handguns here.
I know people who used to legally own handguns here and said banning them would not stop criminals which was never the point, the point was to stop people going postal with a legal weapon because the would try and kill as many people as possible.

What a totally screwed up place where it is considered acceptable to teach a 9 year old to fire an uzi. That poor kid will now be scarred by that event for the rest of her life.

Constitution or not, surely most right minded parents would think that was not a good idea.

This weekend my 9 year old daughter will mostly be going to ballet and swimming lessons, riding her bike, building lego, watching telly and fighting with her brother and sister. For this country, that is normal and i am grateful for that.

This thing never happens in the UK

Oh wait…

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/eightyearold-accidentally-shot-essex-boy-aged-five-8922078.html

This weekend my 9 year old daughter will mostly be going to ballet and swimming lessons, riding her bike, building lego, watching telly and fighting with her brother and sister. For this country, that is normal and i am grateful for that.

That’s what most American kids will do. If you judge a nation of 314 million people spread over 3.8 million square miles by the actions of vocal minorities then you’ll get a rather skewed view of things.

That pic up there of guns in the supermarket reminds me of a stopover in Burley, Idaho last Easter – guns and newly hatched chicks freely available in the supermarket but took us an age to find a liquor store – I’m guessing there must’ve been some sort of legislation on alcohol advertising – we finally found a plain door off the street marked ‘The Asylum’ – climbed the dingy stair and found the one of the busiest, friendliest bars of the holiday 😛 – you’d never have known from the outside 😉

It may well be a minority but it is still legal and still happens

That pic up there of guns in the supermarket reminds me of a stopover in Burley, Idaho last Easter – guns and newly hatched chicks freely available in the supermarket but took us an age to find a liquor store – I’m guessing there must’ve been some sort of legislation on alcohol advertising

The southern part of Idaho is very Mormon / LDS – with a similar attitude to alcohol as you’d find in Utah.

It may well be a minority but it is still legal and still happens

You talked of ‘normal’. I know plenty of British kids who shoot with their parents. It’s quite ‘normal’ and even ‘legal’ in parts of the British countryside.
I do think that automatic weapons in the hands of the civilian population are a bad idea, but regardless of legal situation, normal for the USA is boringly similar to normal for the UK.

There is nothing wrong with target shooting using appropriate target rifles, pistols.
But blasting the shit out of stuff with military hardware would probably be quit fun but does that make it right.

Any one who shoots will know, keep you gun pointed in a safe direction ( ground ) at all times . you never point a gun at anything you do not wish to shoot.
Do not touch the trigger until on target.
If someone hands you a firearm check it’s not loaded (never take it for granted it isn’t even if they tell you so)
I have a safety on my air rifles but don’t use it as would never walk around with a loaded rifle but choose only to load when about to take a shot .
If you follow all of the above rules you will never accidentally shoot anyone, unless you give a small child an Uzi obviously .

Ive shot a few times now at indoor ranges in Las Vegas, and I have to say the security is pretty tight , and as an adult they are very wary and stand in positions to stop you from doing things like the girl did. The UZZI and the MAC 10 just spray bullets on full auto and you can surprise yourself at how fast the gun can lift. Ive seen a few people grip the trigger harder as it does this, though they do tell you to shoot in short bursts.
Im guessing because she is so small he couldn.t use the force he would use with an adult (they do bear down on you quite a bit).

You talked of ‘normal’. I know plenty of British kids who shoot with their parents. It’s quite ‘normal’ and even ‘legal’ in parts of the British countryside.

I have to agree on that point but you don’t tend to shoot rabbits or pheasants with an Uzi.

The gun culture in some states is mind blowing, we had a guy from the American MDA come to visit us at work and he constantly mentioned feeling naked without his handgun. He said he puts it on every morning for work as naturally as he puts on his wrist watch. He said he felt nervous without it.

This thing never happens in the UK

Oh wait…

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/eightyearold-accidentally-shot-essex-boy-aged-five-8922078.html

It happens here, but rarely. In that report, it doesn’t say what type of weapon but given that “shot in the face” resulted in “serious but not life threatening injury”, I’m assuming it wasn’t a machine gun.

Meanwhile, in America, two kids a week are accidentally killed by guns.

The difference in the rates of unintentional gun death is quite big:

UK, 2011: 0.00 per 100000 (2 deaths, altogether)
US, 2011: 0.3 per 100000 (851 deaths, altogether)