So, long story short: I helped design and prototype a bike design, putting a lot of work into it, and quite a bit of money in terms of parts etc., on the understanding that profits would be split 50/50 – it was a pretty speculative thing at the time.

Now the bike is a success, selling in the thousands, but I’ve not seen any money from it – how long to I keep up the friendly hints before I start thinking of other ways?

TBH, I let it slide for a long time as it took a while to get off the ground…

Was it verbal agreement or do you have emails etc etc?

I have emails 😉

Ask them rather than drop friendly hints.
What bike?

If it were me I’d arrange to meet and be perfectly open on the ‘we were doing it 50/50 and I think it’s time I started seeing my share’. Give a timescale – 3 months (or whatever) during which you;d like to see some revenure coming your way. Ask if you can agree how ‘profit’ is defined – very easy to run a business that makes no profits if you want to.

Produce letter after meeting listing what was discussed.

If you get no joy after that then write a formal letter giving your intentions to pursue it and take legal advice.

Don;t need a letter for an agreement to be enforceable but clearly any evidence you do have would help.

Now selling in their thousands… I wouldn’t wait- I’d take some initial legal advice then draft something to the other party A-SAP.

When I say “drop hints” I mean my emails have been friendly ones of the “lets get this sorted out” kind. I’ve also got no indication that they don’t want to sort it out, it’s just dragging out.

I’d rather not say which bike.

PS thanks very much for the advice – I’ll start with a more formal email now.

very easy to run a business that makes no profits if you want to

Spoken like someone who runs their own business!

Are you going to admit it is the Orange 5?

I wouldn’t even bother with hints anymore. Its obvious hes not willing to play ball/normal- get to a Solicitor. A quick google should help direct to product royalties etc specialist if need be.

It’ll cost you a small bit for the first letter.

If you’ve got the emails printed off, I can have a look at them when I see you tomorrow Ben? Might be useful to have an outsider opinion on what the paperwork says you agreed, rather than what you remember.

Can also recommend a load of ex colleagues who can advise if need be.

bencooper – Member
I’d rather not say which bike.

Oh dear…

Thanks very much, will do…

Edit: if it was that bike, I’d probably let it go 😉

Selling in the thousands?
It’s not an Apollo is it :O)

A UK based brand?

Profits are not royalties…

Yes, I was being vague because I don’t know the exact term for it.

A UK based brand?

In this case, yes – don’t get me started on design work I’ve done for non-UK companies that I haven’t seen a penny for 😉

Must learn to stop being so helpful…

Hopefully your business partner is just too busy selling the thing to get it sorted.

Set a time and date yourself and tell him/her you’ll be turning up to sort it out then. Tell rather than ask.

Get legal advice. Doing so isn’t an aggressive move, it’s a proactive one.

Unless you signed a contract detailing royalties of x% for x years etc I think your struggle will be if the uphill variety. Even when dealing with mates, getting a contract signed and witnessed beforehand saves a lot of trouble.

So, a month and a half on from the (I think very fair) proposal I emailed him, I’ve had no reply – chasing by phone, and he promises to have a think about it by next week.

So, next stage – it’s too much for Small Claims I think, where do I go from here?

I’m learning, yet again, why it’s a bad idea to go into business with friends 😉

Watch a few episodes of ‘the sheriffs are coming’

So, a month and a half on from the (I think very fair) proposal I emailed him, I’ve had no reply – chasing by phone, and he promises to have a think about it by next week.

So, next stage – it’s too much for Small Claims I think, where do I go from here?

tbh I’d have just gone to see him, in person – radical I know, but I’m old fashioned…

EDIT – is this you?

http://www.kinetics.org.uk/blog/

Have these bikes got anything to do with Paper?

tbh I’d have just gone to see him, in person – radical I know, but I’m old fashioned…

EDIT – is this you?

He came up here a month and a half ago, we had a talk, he went away to think about it.

Yup, that’s my blog – doesn’t get used all that much 😉

TBC – yes, good guess.

You can tell it was made for health and safety – it’s painted bright red 😉

That’s my custom indestructable Mikrocopter dome – the official MK one costs €25 and is vac-formed plastic, that one was 99p from Poundstretchers 😉

I like the look of the paper bike. I might actually buy one.

It was originally meant to be for the Royal Mail, a tough simple bike that the posties couldn’t break…

Do they ride nice?

Yes – they’re not especially light but they don’t feel like a Dutch roadster.

This is a bit late for this particular one, but on the rare occasions I do anything that isn’t my main work, if there’s money to be had, at the first discussion, I talk about how money is going to work (fixed amount of money, or hourly), then always follow it up with an email stating what we agreed.

That way everyone is clear, and if by chance someone doesn’t pay you, it is just a matter of sending an invoice and being (very) persistent.

On the other hand, it’s a small world, I bet you personally or through contacts know 90% of the people who sell these particular specialist bikes, if you’ve got tons of evidence that you helped with the design in return for a share of revenues, and you haven’t been paid, you could easily make a lot of hassle for the manufacturer if you were to publicise this, or say to notify all the dealers that you were liable for a share of profit on the bikes, or similar. It would probably be legally unenforceable, but when faced with potential hassle, chances are the small shop owners involved wouldn’t want to deal with the bikes any more, or at least would bombard the manufacturer with worried questions; if you’re selling a niche product to a small section of an industry, you rely a lot on good publicity and dealer goodwill.

I’d link him to this thread too. It’s not exactly good publicity for the bike is it.

Ben, my offer still stands fella, just email me.

Thanks very much – he promises to get back to me early next week, if not then I could definitely do with your help.