Frame advice for a noob -- ragley blue pig or cotic bfe?

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Frame advice for a noob -- ragley blue pig or cotic bfe?

89 posts & 38 voices | Started 2 years ago by theyEye | Latest reply from ivantate

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theyEye - Member

After 15 years of keeping my wheels exclusively on the road, one of my buddies has convinced me to give the mountains a shot for the first time. My friend does mid-level freeride and dh, so I'll definitely be coming along for that, but I expect there will be a lot of XC and uphill in there as well. Mostly in the Appenines, where I live, but the Alps aren't far either... I'm definitely going to break myself, but there are worse ways to go out.

So now I want to buy a bike that is okay for zero skills, and will be a blast when (if ever) I know what I'm doing in a couple years' time. But I know nothing about mountain bikes. Help!!!

After a lot of (theoretical) research, I've picked out all the components (Pikes on the front, pretty much XT and Hope everywhere else), and decided that I want a steel hardtail. Steel for that little extra give, and hardtail because I prefer simplicity and it just seems more fun. My freeriding friend thinks I'm mad for not going full sus, and I possibly am, but so what.

Now, looked at Dialled, Cove, Genesis, Orange, etc. Read all the posts here, reviews, etc. In the end, rightly or wrongly, I really like the Ragley Blue Pig and the Cotic Bfe.

Can anyone tell me what the difference is, aside from the price?
Recommendations among the two?

Angles, diameters, lengths, etc. mean nothing to me, I'd like to know about the bike on the trail. Total noob here...

Posted 2 years ago #
davidtaylforth - Member

Ragley has a slack head angle so I guess its more stable or confidence giving on faster decents. The seat angle is steep so climbing remains good. Chainstays are longish for stability.

BFe isnt as slack so i guess its more responsive when its slower or twistier. The stays are shorter so its easier for hops, manuals etc and its got a lowish BB so its corners nicely.

Out of these two Ive got a BFe and its great, I didnt want a Ragley cos i thought it would be too slack and long for what I wanted. Probably not as good as the BFe for jumps and that sort of stuff too.

The BFe, even though its steel, isnt something id consider if Ive never beeen mtbing before, its a hardcore frame for jumps/downhill everything, a Cotic Coul would be better and alot more comfy, the BFe is pretty stiff.

I'd say go for an On One 456 since there cheaper than both of those, probably a pretty neautral good all round mtb and it would be pointless to spend hundreds on something youve never done before

Posted 2 years ago #
davidtaylforth - Member

Id also say the Blue Pig would maybe be better then the BFe if your a beginner, slacker head angle will give you more confidence on the DH's.

You definitely dont need full sus either, but it helps. I rode in the Alps over summer with my mates who were on 8inch travel dh bikes, I was on my Dialled Alpine hardtail, kept up ok, jsut got a bit more battered. Only thing you struggle on on a hardtail is breaking bumps

Posted 2 years ago #
Ben_Haworth - Moderator

Experienced riders will get more out of a BFe or (especially) a Ragley. IMO.

I'd recommend going for an off-the-peg Cannondale trail SL...
http://gb.cannondale.com/bikes/10/CE/model-0FE1.html

Posted 2 years ago #
brant - Member

Cotic has 16.5in chainstays.

Ragley has 16.73in chainstays.

I think BB height is pretty much identical (Cotic is actually 0.3mm higher according to my drawings).

Posted 2 years ago #
mansonsoul - Member

I'd go for a BFe. The angles are fantastic and Cotic are fantastic to deal with.

Posted 2 years ago #
atlaz - Member

Perhaps go test ride some bikes and see what works for you?

Posted 2 years ago #
PeterPoddy - Member

TBH I'd say you're setting your sights a bit high for a 'beginner' with bikes like those. They are pretty beefy and a tad specialised..... Why not something a bit more XC biased that will be more useful over a wider range of riding, but that will still take the 140mm fork and a good battering? E.G. - On One 456 or Cotic Soul?

Just my 2ps worth.

That said, from those two, I'd have the Cotic.

Posted 2 years ago #
soobalias - Member

brant. dont come in here with your common sense approach and fact based opinions.

OP, buy the one that makes your tummy tingle, you will ride it more.

Posted 2 years ago #
0range5 - Member

Another option if you can afford it is a Curtis.
But I'd go for the Ragley, after reading reviews. IMO mag reviews have got loads better in the last few years & they seem to all consistently like the Blue Pig. Makes sense as well, looking at the design points.

If you speak to Brant I'm sure he would explain, but as I understand it, the head angle should take account of where it will be when you use up all the travel. So a retro head angle of 71 deg when there was no suspension or very little travel was OK, but put that on a bike with 130mm travel & you're likely to go off the front when you use up all the travel on a steep section. I think ST tested a ti hardtail with this problem. The Blue pig seems to bring lots of good stuff together. A big consideration is tyre size - I like hardtails where you've got the option for big tyres, especially on long downhills.

And for forks, I think you're right with Pikes. Rockshox are sorted these days, even the 100mm Toras perform better than a set of 130mm Fox Vanillas from 2005 that I had on my HT.

Another plus with the Ragley is toughness. I'm not saying the others aren't, but the Ragley has passed the new standard.

Finally, bear in mind that you'll get used to whatever you buy, so as long as it fits & you learn some good technique, if you buy roughly the right kind of bike you won't have too many regrets. I would buy a full-sus if I could only have 1 bike, but would like something like a Blue Pig or the ti version if poss, as well.

Posted 2 years ago #
GaryLake - Member

What PP said, but I'd suggest a Genesis Altitude...

Posted 2 years ago #
GaryLake - Member

And just to clarify, the BFe also passes the new CEN standard.

Posted 2 years ago #
theyEye - Member

Holy c***! This is the greatest forum ever! Thanks.

I'd go for some test rides, but what's a spin around the parking lot gonna tell me? And even if I could go on the trail, at this point I have no idea what I'm doing, so in no position to judge... And to top it all off, can't find any of these frames around here (Bologna in Italy).

So far I've got:
1. Blue Pig more stable on fast descents and a good climber
2. Bfe more maneuverable on twisty stuff and easier for jumps
3. 456 is cheap and more versatile
4. Soul is expensive and more versatile

Two votes for Bfe, two for Ragley.

Brant -- what does that mean? Are you saying that the Pig is as good on twists and jumps?

Thanks PeterPoddy, appreciate the perspective, and you're right. But if I don't believe the bike I bought is just right to take me all the way to where I want to end up skill/style wise, I'll end up blaming the bike for my own failures. Yes, super lame, but I know myself. Sigh.

Posted 2 years ago #
PeterPoddy - Member

Thanks PeterPoddy, appreciate the perspective, and you're right. But if I don't believe the bike I bought is just right to take me all the way to where I want to end up skill/style wise, I'll end up blaming the bike for my own failures. Yes, super lame, but I know myself. Sigh.

That's fair enough, I can see you've thought about it, I was just offering an alternative opinion.

Posted 2 years ago #
0range5 - Member

I'd say if it was for just the UK, then maybe go for more XC based, but for the Alps, I reckon it's different. I've never been a fan of starting on 'beginner' bikes & then upgrading, except that starting on full sus can be bad as it's easy to learn bad habits. As has been said already, if you can try before you buy then do, not every great bike feels great to everyone.

As you can see, lots of opinions on offer, so make the best guess, then get out & ride!

Posted 2 years ago #
crazy-legs - Member

Steel for that little extra give, and hardtail because I prefer simplicity and it just seems more fun

Now I've only had a brief spin on a BFe but I'll tell you it had ZERO give. Steel or not there was NO flex! Perhaps it was just that bike which I tested (it had a chunky alu seatpost too). have to say that in spite of that it was ace, even on a short test loop.

Ian, the guide/owner of A Quick Release MTB guiding company rides one for the sort of riding you describe (they're based in Luchon, Pyrenees) and he's definitely no slouch. The bike handles all that he can throw at it.

Posted 2 years ago #
cy - Member

I think the only thing I'd add is that a 456 is less versatile than a BFe, not more. It's not a deal lighter than a BFe or a Blue Pig, and with shorter forks on it the BFe settles down to classic Soul trail bike geometry, plus with no seat tube bottle bosses you can get the saddle all the way down on the BFe, unlike the 456, so you'll have more options for saddle right down action if you're learning tricky moves.

I've not ridden any of the Ragley's, so I'm not speaking from experience, but knowing the shape of the frames I'd say the whole 'Ragley will be fast and stable, BFe will be nippier in the direction changes' is about right. Both are fairly slack, although the BFe is around 1-1.5deg steeper for a given fork, depending on set up.

Posted 2 years ago #
soobalias - Member

I'll end up blaming the bike for my own failures

if that is the case you need to be looking at a full sus, even more so as that is what you will be riding alongside.

Posted 2 years ago #
wors - Member

If you get a blue pig it may feel strange at first, but give it a couple of rides and it'll feel just right.

Posted 2 years ago #
BigDummy - Member

All due respect to the OP, but one can agonise waaaay too much about these decisions.

You've identified the sort of kit you want to hang on it, and the sort of frame you want. Both the Blue Pig and the Bfe are the same general idea, and both are perfectly good frames. Buy whichever floats your boat and avoid changing it until you're fairly confident that the bike rather than your skill level is holding you back and that you can tell the difference.

Posted 2 years ago #
freeridenick - Member

You will definately benefit from starting out on the HT and get your skiils up quick rather than just being lazy on at full suss.

I am from the dialled bikes fanclub - so can totally recommend a PA. I run mine with pikes, short stem, bash guard, big tyres - mucho fun...
but to be honest you wont really notice much difference between all the Long Travel hardtails.

Posted 2 years ago #
stevenmenmuir - Member

I've been short changed, no bottle bosses on my 456 seat tube. Or Cy has got it wrong, soory Cy. But I'd bow to his greater knowledge on everything else.

Posted 2 years ago #
Trekster - Member

My views, from a Pig owner
[/quote]Ragley has a slack head angle so I guess its more stable or confidence giving on faster decents. The seat angle is steep so climbing remains good. Chainstays are longish for stability.

True....

Out of these two Ive got a BFe and its great, I didnt want a Ragley cos i thought it would be too slack and long for what I wanted. Probably not as good as the BFe for jumps and that sort of stuff too.

Do not know about jumping because I don t.......

Finally, bear in mind that you'll get used to whatever you buy, so as long as it fits & you learn some good technique, if you buy roughly the right kind of bike you won't have too many regrets. I would buy a full-sus if I could only have 1 bike, but would like something like a Blue Pig or the ti version if poss, as well.

What Orange5 says, make sure it fits. I am 6ft and the 18" is perfect.

I've not ridden any of the Ragley's, so I'm not speaking from experience, but knowing the shape of the frames I'd say the whole 'Ragley will be fast and stable, BFe will be nippier in the direction changes' is about right.

Fast and stable and OK on directional changes

Id also say the Blue Pig would maybe be better then the BFe if your a beginner, slacker head angle will give you more confidence on the DH's.

You definitely dont need full sus either

Do not know about that but the Pig is very easy to ride. No you do not need full sus. I have one, retired for the winter. The Pig is so much fun

The Pig is a very comfy bike to ride out on the trails. I have a dodgy back and have been out and about on a few 3-4hr rides without any niggles

[quote]but to be honest you wont really notice much difference between all the Long Travel hardtails.

Yes you can. Mate and I swapped bikes(Alpine) a bit recently. Pig is best

Posted 2 years ago #
pjbarton - Member

considering where you're riding you be nuts not to go for full sus. i really don't think full sus teaches bad habits, it's just different riding. faster downhill, especially places like the alps

Posted 2 years ago #
18bikes - Member

we've got Soul (ok, no Bfe, but it's here/sizing ideas too) and Blue Pig available to demo - come ride em and see what you think?

Posted 2 years ago #
Blower - Member

been riding the Bfe for over a year now,sound it is,but always feels too short for me on the climbs especially. i ride a large and am 5ft11..
tough frame i'll give it that,them Ragleys are sounding and looking nice though.
bfe for sale? hmm.,

Posted 2 years ago #
theyEye - Member

Thanks! Very interesting. The frames are coming into focus.

Thanks for the test ride offer 18bikes, but Bologna to Derbyshire is a bit of a drive...

PJBarton -- Sounds like something my freeriding buddy would say. Is that you Massi? No, the english is too good...

Updated conclusions:
1. Blue Pig more stable on fast descents and a better climber
2. Bfe more maneuverable on twisty stuff and easier for jumps
3. Possibly the differences between them are small enough to not worry about

Four recommendations for the Blue Pig, three for BFe.

Pretty evenly matched, it seems to me. And after reading all your comments, I suspect that bigdummy and freeridenick are right, it won't make a massive difference, especially to me.

Now for the tie breaker: Is a BFe worth 40% more than the Blue Pig? From the above it sure doesn't seem like it...

So it looks like Brant's got himself another customer. If he ever gets any frames in the shops, that is...

Thanks a lot everyone, really appreciated.

Posted 2 years ago #
Blower - Member

buy my bfe

Posted 2 years ago #
Trekster - Member

ragley

Doubt if you will be disappointed

I ride a Kona Dawg Primo full sus and have an old Bontrager, so have been riding a steel bike for 16yrs.
These 2bikes became donors for the Pig until I can afford to fit new stuff. The only new parts fitted were headset, cables and seat clamp. The Bonty will be retired until I can restore to it`s old retro self.

As a beginner I reckon a Pig would do you for a couple of years to build up some skills before progressing to fs. You will be surprised at how much you can do on a hardtail, I know some of my acquaintances are

Posted 2 years ago #
theyEye - Member

Sure, can you cut it down to small?

I'm 5'9/10, so not THAT much shorter than you, but a large is, well, too large. By A LOT...

At least that's what I've read, since I've never even sat on a proper mountain bike before.

Posted 2 years ago #
rangerbill - Member

Ive got a Pig and I love it, its fantastic up hill, it climbs really well and then when you get to the top and point it down, its even better!
Its a strong bike so dont expect too much of the steel twang, I have a rocklobster 853 which is twangy and as good up hill as the pig but with 100mm forks it cant touch the pig downhill.
I've not tried the Bfe but im really happy with my Pig.
If I have to do long rides I just change the tyres, I can do 50miles in more comfort than my ols Spesh Epic.
Dont be put off by the riding position of the Pig, you get used to it and its not uncomfy

Posted 2 years ago #
daveh - Member

I know its frightfully unfashionable and mainstream but has anyone ridden both a BluePig and Marin Rocky Ridge?

Posted 2 years ago #
Trekster - Member

daveh....yes. Daughters partner has one and it is sluggish compared to the Pig, feel as if you are falling off the back for some reason?

theeye...18 will do you fine with a 50mm stem and a straight seat post.

Posted 2 years ago #
scotabroad - Member

853 dialled bikes Prince Albert is another frame you should consider, rides very nicely in my opinion on technical trails and climbs well (well as good as its owner can).

Posted 2 years ago #
Northwind - Member

If you're sticking 140mm into it, then the new Soul would probably make more sense than the BFe. (FWIW I think for general riding you'd be better with 130mm in these frames, but that's personal taste, 130mm did me fine on a Soul for the fort william DH )

Have you already ruled out a 456? Not the same as either the Cotic or the Ragley but another great allrounder and much cheaper. The odds that your first ever mtb frame will be your last are approximately a billion to one so it might not be a bad idea to dip your toe in the water with a cheaper option.

Posted 2 years ago #