A business deal has failed and a machinery broker can no longer supply so my friend overseas wants his £15,000 deposit back and has asked me to help because the broker isn’t answering emails or picking up his phone. I have plenty of detail on the broker including several addresses, one he uses as a business address. BT Directory enquiries doesn’t seem to list him. I hope it won’t come to this but:

Can I make a claim through Small Claims Court on behalf of my overseas friend?

Do I even need to go through a court? What about a debt recovery agent?

(The broker is in his 70s so is unlikely to be active on social media)

first answer on your previous thread might help;

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/finding-someone-whos-disappeared

debt recovery will be a lot easier with a court order. No idea what small claims goes up to but £5k doesn’t sound ‘small’ and might need a proper court hearing?

[edit] for £15k I’d be getting profesionals to handle things, even if it cost me 30% of the debt.

Just a thought. Are you sure the Broker hasn’t died or ended up in Hospital? Maybe tread carefully before going in with the big guns.

Google the name normally brings up registered voting address 192.com i think .
You can’t sue for your friend only a solicitor can issue proceedings for another (sort of. ) Your friend should be able to issue proceedings on line will need to be here for any hearings or instruct a solicitor though.
For 15k most commercial solicitor firms will have an efficient debt recovery dept who will work on a percentage , or staged scale of costs. The solicitors will also do the person trace.

Thanks for the advice. The broker is alive and kicking and was emailing the seller yesterday evening to make a derisory last-minute offer, which the seller rejected.

Can I make a claim through Small Claims Court on behalf of my overseas friend?

Nope, you can’t chase a debt on behalf of a 3rd party.

Nope, you can’t chase a debt on behalf of a 3rd party.

Really? I have been taken to small claims by someones Mum, it was all done in the claimants name but the claimant didn’t attend court the Mum did. I won by the way. 😆

Nope, you can’t chase a debt on behalf of a 3rd party.

so how do solicitors and debt collection agencies manage?

Maybe I’m just out of date…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contracts_%28Rights_of_Third_Parties%29_Act_1999

I wouldn’t consider a solicitor a 3rd party as they represent you.

Is this an African friend ? Why no letter of credit ?

A letter of credit for £15,000? Have you any idea how much the bank charges would be, at both ends?

I’ve just called the bloke on my cycling phone, so a number he wouldn’t recognise, and he picked up straight away. Said he was driving and hand-held and would call me back in 30 minutes. We’ll see….

I used Hilton Baird for my debt recovery.
Helpful, well informed and on top of everything legal and procedural.
Wouldnt hesitate to recommend them.

no need to pay via 192.com just use http://www.freeelectoralroll.co.uk/

so my friend overseas wants his £15,000 deposit back

Is it a non-returnable deposit?

A letter of credit for £15,000? Have you any idea how much the bank charges would be, at both ends?
I’ve just called the bloke on my cycling phone, so a number he wouldn’t recognise, and he picked up straight away. Said he was driving and hand-held and would call me back in 30 minutes. We’ll see….

You stated 15k as a deposit so I was assuming the full cost was substantially higher, if the total cost is 15k the surely the deposit cannot be a sum more than 2-3k which will be impossible to recover, but good luck anyway.

“so how do solicitors and debt collection agencies manage?”

Solicitors by virtue of being Solicitors can act for their clients and issue proceedings.

Debt collection agencies can chase payment via phone letter threats etc but run up against a brick wall if the debt is disputed or they get to the point where the only option is to sue in which case back to solicitors for the client to issue.

some debt collection agencies buy the debt so they effectively become the creditor.
(close enough answer for STW unpaid work some exceptions may apply)

Is the contract with the agent as an individual or with a company controlled by him?

Look at companies house either way. They also just made a whole bunch of filings free with no login

Well the upshot is that the broker did actually call me back. He made all the usual excuses, trying to shift the blame to my friend but the fact remains that he has been unable to fulfill the contract because the seller decided to withdraw two vital pieces of machinery from the sale. Quite rightly the buyer decided to withdraw and wants his deposit returned. The broker blames the buyer for being inflexible and says he will keep the deposit until he’s sold the remainder of the equipment but at least he’s acknowledged that he has the cash. The next battle will be getting him actually to repay the cash because he’s whining that he can’t do that without an invoice….

In consumer law the seller would be in breach of contract by being unable to fulfil the order. Refund should be paid within 14 days.

I don’t know how that applies in the business world, but I’d expect the logic to be similar. Put it in writing, give them 30 days to refund or you’ll start court proceedings, maybe? All this telephone chasing is worthless, as you’ve no audit trail (at the very least you want to be keeping a diary of conversations).

The broker blames the buyer for being inflexible and says he will keep the deposit[b] has probably spent the deposit and can’t return it [/b] until he’s sold the remainder of the equipment but at least he’s acknowledged
pretended that he has the cash.

A more likely scenario maybe?

192.com is very hit and miss.
you should try companies house as they should have a record of his business if its registered. however with recent data protection changes he will now no longer be required to provide his home address details so if he is listed as a company director and you can track down the company look through any annual returns they have submitted as there will be director info in there.
if you need any further help email me

So now you’ve spoken to him, you have his business address?

Yes, it looks like a small compound off Chingford Mount Road E4 but the nature of his business is that the equipment he brokers will be shipped straight from seller to buyer. The proforma he supplied was just cooked up on Word with no company header. There is a VAT number though, as well as a Lloyds bank account for the payment.

I guess a company name and address would be sufficient for a court action?

It depends if a company has anything to do with it…

how much of this contract is in writing?
Who are the parties to the contract?
Whose bank account was the deposit paid to?

There is nothing in writing. The cost of the machinery was to be £33,000. The £15,000 deposit was paid from overseas into the broker’s Lloyds bank account. The two parties are my friend overseas and the broker. An Experian search on the company named on the cooked-up proforma invoice brings up nothing but the broker’s name pops up here and there as director of a couple of other companies, none of which has filed accounts, so he seems to be operating below the radar. He is 70 and has been swanning around on the edges of the industry for years so I expect he’s a cunning old fox.

There is nothing in writing…

That’s the end of that then.

This sounds like it’s going to go South quickly to me. It’s exactly the type of deal we would run from the hills from when I worked in Asset Finance and recoveries.

So your foreign friend gave £15k to someone he didn’t really know, who didn’t give any sort of proper paperwork outside of a non-branded word created proforma, and the guy is shady, uses multiple addresses and trades using a mobile number.

I hope I’m wrong, but if it all goes wrong, ignore small claims court, it’s easy but they’re pretty toothless against the truly belligerent, get a solicitor and go for High Court, have you seen “can’t pay…” they don’t **** about.

There is nothing in writing….I expect he’s a cunning old fox.

I expect you’re right…

15k and nothing in writing? ouch….

grass him up to HMRC. You may never see the £15k again mind.

nealglover – Member

There is nothing in writing…

That’s the end of that then.

Yep, boned.

As the claimant in any sort of court case the burden of proof is on you (or your friend in this case) I can’t see you having enough information to start a claim.

‘threaten to’ grass him up to HMRC. You may never see the £15k again mind find he pays up faster than expected…..

If the person your friend would sue is the company, then the home address of a director or shareholder is of limited use in the first instance. You’d communicate with the company via their Registered Address.

Your friend needs to start the tedious process of gathering all the documents (emails are documents) that evidence the contract.

I don’t know why people are already jumping up and down about HMRC – if the company doesn’t file accounts, it’s quite possibly because it’s too small to be required to – which wouldn’t be surprising if OP is right that it’s a one man show.

Well he has a “partner” and from what I know about them they trade a lot in used machinery and chemicals; for example he used to sell our waste product to a factory in Durban for around £5000 a batch. I think a threat to speak with HMRC might be quite effective.

I don’t know why people are already jumping up and down about HMRC

Because a guy that does deals for £15k without paperwork is very unlikely to be declaring everything to the HMRC.

The idea of being audited might be unpleasant enough to make him see sense and pay up.