[Closed] Fancy a change - Nicolai or Knolly

paging geetee to the forum...

Nice problem to have. I'd go with the chili, those knollys ride amazingly well and it'll be cheaper and manufactured just as well.

wrecker

it'll be cheaper and manufactured just as well.

I doubt it'll be substantially cheaper and I reeeeaaaaally doubt it'll be just as well made. Knolly's 2 year warranty, and Nicolai's 5 year, transferable warranty (which also includes racing) seems to back that up.

To me the Knollys look like a linkage driving a linkage for the sake of uniqueness/patent laws, whereas the Nicolai is a proper 4-bar. I've ridden a few Helius, one of which was set up to my liking and was just stunning.

Knolly have had a fair few QC issues lately iirc...

Double post

I doubt it'll be substantially cheaper and I reeeeaaaaally doubt it'll be just as well made.

The knolly may not be as well made, in that it didn't have 19 Germans agonise over every weld, but it will be well enough made for a bike. A sweet sweet bike.

That said, I'd go for the Nicolai not because I ride at the ragged edge where only beautiful looking welds and nano-scale tolerances keep me from supersonic flaming death, but because I love the look of their paint... hmm, dizzy camo or dizzy koi, its a toughy!

Edited to say: and if Knolly are having QC issues, then Nicolai it is!

Nicolai Fan here..on my 2nd AM

I have a Helius AM and find it an amazing bike that is great to ride in various terrains.

I live in the Highlands and my stomping grounds are Laggan/Golspie/Cairngorms/Torridon/FW etc and the bike just excels in these area's....I also do the puffer on it!!

Also just back from Morzine and tackled everything over there very happily on the bike...

Mine is built up with Fox 36's CCDB XT Mavic 819's on Pro 2's

I am also pretty heavy and give the bike a fair bit of work and I have never had any issues with the frame.

The build quality is amazing and the ride is great.... No fancy gimmicks..no curves just great German Engineering with a 5 year warranty

I am sure you will receive other comments but thats my opinion.

Best get a loan of one and make your own mind up.

Best look on MTBR in the Nicolai section for more info.

Good Luck

I doubt it'll be substantially cheaper and I reeeeaaaaally doubt it'll be just as well made.

Is this based on any experience or just an assumption?

Well, from what I can see the Knolly is about £300 quid cheaper, assuming we are talking about a stock Nicolai. So, that's not experience or assumption. That's just the price. Having looked at many Nicolai's and a few Knolly's I would say that the quality of workmanship and finish on the Nicolai's is superior. Vastly so. I haven't destruction tested either though, so I guess that might be purely superficial. Given Nicolai's legendary build quality though I really doubt it.

I've ridden knollys and 4 bars. The knollys ride nicer IMO

I think it's pretty pointless to try and make sweeping generalities based on linkage types, I'll just say that if you like the way the Knollys feel then good for you. I can't say I thought they were remarkable, but then again I haven't spent much time on one to set it up right for me.

those Canadians know a thing or two about mountain biking.

I fancy a change sometimes too... good thing my Helius AM is so versatile 8)

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

I doubt you would go far wrong with either option but once you've owned a Nicolai it's very easy to become a devotee (this is my third Nicolai... in 8 years 😉 ).

I've had this two years and so far there is nothing I've seen I would change it for... if I had the money I would simply pimp it a bit more to drop the weight.

I second what Wrecker said in that as I have not ridden a Knolly, I can’t comment on how the two compare. What I can do direct you to at least two people I know of who can give you a direct comparison between Knolly and Nicolai.

If you go to the [url= http://http://forums.mtbr.com/nicolai/ ]Nicolia MTBR Forum[/url] and look for either 'Whafe' or 'Loamranger', they have both owned and ridden Knollys.

Whafe has a few mates who have recently moved over from Knolly to Nicolai and Loamranger has just gone the other way. Whafe is pretty active on the forum so if you post a question directed to him he will definitely respond and he's a super nice bloke who really knows his onions (literally, he's an expert in onions!)

I guess Knolly and Nicolai might be considered substitute brands, based on their perceived (and real) robustness and strength. Like Messiah, I'm soon going to be on my third Nic and am only replacing my three year old Helius AM with another, up dated and fully tailored one. I also totally agree with Messiah that ownership tends to lead to 'devoteeism'. I'm not sure why that is but most likely it's to do with the feeling that your bike was made just for you by craftsman you could in theory phone and talk to - that strong connection is quite powerful and I think a lot of people who end up owning one Nicolai, end up owning more than one.

That said, none of this would matter if they didn't also ride extremely well. The Helius AM is a fabulous ride and is very neutral; it just feels 'right' from the first pedal. It has no discernible character or quirky suspension feel and while the VPP system may 'get out of the way of square edge hits' better, the four bar design of the Helius is still very plush and effective in the rocks.

Mine was quite happy to sit right on the wheel of a well known industry figure's Orange 224 kitted out with a CCDB and Totem forks in the Alps last year.

I owned a Knolly that broke at the the seat tube and cracked at the swingarm after over two years, as have a few first gen Endorphins. However whether this a QC issue or not does not make any difference to either a Chilcotin or new Endorphin as they have now moved manufacture, if you look on MTBR you can see the story. I now have a Chilcotin which I am very happy with, thanks to the new UK importer and Noel at Knolly offering me a very good deal out of warranty.
Speak to John at Knolly UK, he was sorting demo bikes out last time I spoke to him. I am sure that you would be happy with either but for the money I would test ride, the climbing traction of a Knolly is one of the things that kept me with the brand.

Well, from what I can see the Knolly is about £300 quid cheaper, assuming we are talking about a stock Nicolai.So, that's not experience or assumption. That's just the price.

really? contradicts your earlier statement doesn't it?

I doubt it'll be substantially cheaper

Having looked at many Nicolai's and a few Knolly's I would say that the quality of workmanship and finish on the Nicolai's is superior. Vastly so.

You being a qualified manufacturing engineer and all?

I haven't destruction tested either though, so I guess that might be purely superficial.

Quite

I think it's pretty pointless to try and make sweeping generalities based on linkage types,

So why make ridiculous comments like this?;

Knollys look like a linkage driving a linkage for the sake of uniqueness/patent laws,

Yeah but those Germans know a thing or two about engineering. Not least Kalle Nicolai.

Fair comment, although Noel Buckley is no slouch either.

This isn't to denigrate Nicolais at all, they're great bikes. I do like the round, straight tubes (as per my turner 5 spot).

In fact, I was considering buying a nicolai soon, but this has made me look at the knollys again. I think I'll be getting a new endo when they're available.

EVERY manufacturer has problems;
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/nicolai-uk-nicolai-warrany-experience-read-on

really? contradicts your earlier statement doesn't it?

I doubt it'll be substantially cheaper

I don't see that it does. £300 quid more or there abouts for something handmade in Germany with exquisite craftmanship and legendary build quality, or just another taiwanese frame. I don't see that as a massive difference.

You being a qualified manufacturing engineer and all?

So why make ridiculous comments like this?

Knollys look like a linkage driving a linkage for the sake of uniqueness/patent laws,

Because I wasn't making comment based on how the bike rides, simply an observation that the knolly linkage appears to be unnecessarily over complicated. But I have of course forgotten myself again, me not being a suspension kinematics engineer unlike yourself.

Come on guys play nice. It doesn't sound like you disagree on anything really.

The linkage driven system on the knolly is interesting. It might be done in order to keep the links as short as possible?

I have to say the Knolly does look good in [url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/tisser/6905918782/lightbox/ ]RAW[/url]

I have to say the Knolly does look good in RAW

😯 sweet jesus...

I've not ridden either, although we have had both at Herts over the years. As many of you will know, Herts is a bit of a meat grinder for bikes. We had guy with a Nicolai sheer through its linkage bolts there... never seen another bike break like this. Literally the bolts broke in half inside the linkage.

I queried the price of the Endorphin last month with John @ Knolly UK: frame with a Fox CTD for £1699 or with Cane Creek DB Air for £1899 (inc. VAT & delivery) and they're expecting the first shipment in Sept.

The [url= http://forums.mtbr.com/knolly/not-so-elusive-black-ano-chilcotin-780104.html ]Black[/url] does look good as well though.

still a HELIUS AM????

Float was sweet jesus ....... a good or bad comment 😉

Please, get a Knolly. When I first got my Nicolai, it was lovely and rare. These days, everyone wants one... :-/

Rachel

Heavy XC

I'd always wanted a Nicolai and nearly bought one when I cracked my Intense...priced up the frame I wanted (an AC) with a few custom options and is was going to cost more than £2800! I bought something carbon flavoured instead, for £800 less and don't think the Nicolai would have performed better than what I ended up getting (Mojo HD).
I've always liked hand-built aluminium frames as I used to be a welder/fabricator and can see the work that goes into them. That's all to do with how they look though, which has no effect on how they ride. Carbon is where it's at now. Lighter, stiffer and despite what a lot of folk think, strong! I'd buy an alloy bike to save money, but wouldn't pay more for one that I could get a decent carbon one for.

Literally the bolts broke in half inside the linkage.

Done this to an RM Slayer and seen it happen on an RM Flatline, must have been made from some kinda Canadian cheese.

Rocketdog I'm a fat knacker

I have to say the Knolly does look good in RAW

The Black does look good as well though

What bloody colour would you pick for a Nicolai though.....? 🙂

That's all to do with how they look though, which has no effect on how they ride.

The engineering is more than skin deep though. Their attention to detail in terms of alignment has benefits from not needing bushings/bearings replaced every six months because of poor frame alignment.

There is also a lazer guided precision to the bikes handling and tracking; it holds a line so well and I attribute that in part to the build quality.

I've test ridden a number of carbon bikes recently, including a Carbon Nomad and a Mojo HD and I do agree with the stiffness and lightness comments. Like you, I'm specifying custom geometry on mine and with the damper, the cost is going to be north of £2800. I agree that this is borderline crazy and several time I've come close to changing my mind.

The probelm is, the Mojo HD, good as it is, isn't good enough - it's flawed in my view; too short in medium, too long in large, the suspension kinematics make getting a balanced set up hard. It's still a great bike, but it's not quite what I want. Similarly the Nomad is brilliant - so so stiff, even more so than the Helius AM which is saying something because the Helius is super stiff. But the BB is too high for my liking and again I'm in between sizes in a medium and large.

So my order stil stands - it won't be cheap but I will be getting the perfect bike, at least the perfect bike for me.

What bloody colour would you pick for a Nicolai though.....?

Easy - green ano all over, like these babies:

[img] ?0[/img]

On my second but ridden about 6 variants of am and AC.

The AC 29er is the best trail ride of the lot IMHO.

But candy apple green ano wins every time 😯

Does anyone have a Nicolai with the gearbox? I´m tempted but it´s a lot of money just for the frame/shock.

Tbh it´ll still cost me 2k after selling off my current frame + bits.
Since I can´t get a test ride I´d love to know if anyone has a pinion frame and what´s it like?

We had guy with a Nicolai sheer through its linkage bolts there... never seen another bike break like this. Literally the bolts broke in half inside the linkage.

Which linkage?

The only breakage I've seen on a Nicolai is the rear shock mount, which is 49mm, and unless a reinforced mounting kit (i.e. steel) is used they break the mounting bolt.

TLR may be able to shed more light but I know there in Scotland, SDR08 or something on the Nic forum of MTBR, who has a Pinion on order.

I've tried to work out what the lightest build could be for a Pinion and I'm pretty sure it would still come out some way north of 30lbs and that would be with carbon wheels, which rules it out for me.

I think they've had some supply problems with Pinion as well, hence the delay in them shipping.

Messiah, have you weighed your AM in its different guises?

Float was sweet jesus ....... a good or bad comment

100% a good comment 😀

Have had 2 Nicolai Fr's and Ion st and now have an AC.
Have my Ac built as a not shy trail bike,Bos Devilles(140mm) up front and a CCDB coil shock.I9 wheels,X0,XX groupset.

Stunning to ride,No flex and no problems,without doubt the best bike i have ridden.
I honestly dont think you can go weong with a Nicolai.Colours are the worst bit.
Bring on the Pinion gearbox...lol
Could be something Nicolai new happening soon,once i get enough money saved.

Messiah, have you weighed your AM in its different guises?

Hi Mildred, I'm sad to report that yes I have 😳

With the Float's F&R it's 32lbs and with the CCDB/RC3Ti it's 34lbs.

Which is pretty good considering there is (almost*) no carbon and most of the stuff is burly enough to survive me... Hammerschmidt/Reverb/Flow-Hoops

*Hammerschmidt has a carbon bashguard... I'm sure that saves loads of weight 🙄

That raw frame looks quality and the new Endorphin looks amazing

NOt enough pics in this thread.
First, the Nicolais
Helius AC;
[img] [/img]
Helius AM
[img] [/img]
ION;
[img] [/img]
Now, the knollys;
Endorphin;
[img] [/img]
Chilcotin;
[img] [/img]
New Podium;
[img] [/img]

All very, very sweet bikes. Like I said; nice problem to have. You'll be a very lucky chappy to own any of these IMHO.

I've got a CC and it's an awesome bike, set up for typical uk riding - read, trail centres, forests and hills.

It's a right hoot to ride and even though I don't use it much at the moment I'd not change it.

[img] [/img]

NOt enough pics in this thread.

Good point well made Wrecker... 8)

That chilcotin does look very nice especially with a black frame and doesn't everybody have a Nicolai now.

My Ac.

[IMG] [/IMG]

My 1st Fr

[IMG] [/IMG]

My 2nd Fr

[IMG] [/IMG]

My Ion-st

[IMG] [/IMG]

Only have the AC now

That chilcotin does look very nice especially with a black frame and doesn't everybody have a Nicolai now.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Nicolaisam what was the fr like to ride????

Well, if we're posting pics.
My CC. Love it more than my kids 😉

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8142/7248725782_c76a339098_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8142/7248725782_c76a339098_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikesnthat/7248725782/ ]Untitled[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/bikesnthat/ ]redmancunian69[/url], on Flickr

ash.addy - Member

Nicolaisam what was the fr like to ride????
Posted 13 hours ago # Report-Post

The Fr is an awesome bike,Great all rounder,Can ride everything and everywhere on it.
Have done Uplift days at Cwmcarn on it,Did 10 trips to Gawton on it aswell.I havent ridden an AM but was told they are very similar.
Only reason i sold them was i didnt have time to use it too its full potential,so brought an AC

nicolaisam

what is it like on the ups??

It pedals reasonably well, more or less like an AM, but it's heavy; about a pound heavier than an AM. Lightest you'll get an FR to is about 31lbs. They dropped it because the AM was every bit as capable and more so when they slackened out the geometry.

Currently on my 2nd Nic, both of my riding buddies have them too after riding mine.

Now have a Custom AC29 with 150/140mm travel. its flexible enough to be set up xc or Enduro DH just by swopping the fork (Or travel adjust if you must)

Mine is set up 1x10 and in big hit mode weighs 28lb and xc (120mm) mode with a different fork and tyres, 26lb.

Not as expensive as you'd think either. Have a chat with Dipper at Gravity Sports. Certainly when compared to the likes of Santa Cruz which are eye wateringly expensive, albeit carbon.

I have no concerns about Carbon, the Santa Cruz LTc looks nice but as mentioned earlier I had clear ideas about what I wanted. How long the TT wanted to be, the BB height, chainstay length, head angle etc. First thing i would want to do with the SC is take 2.5degrees off the head angle!

ash.addy - Member

nicolaisam

what is it like on the ups??

Pedals excellently for its weight.
as Geetee mentioned,My black one was 33lbs but was fun to ride,Was overkill on a lot of stuff,but you can make trails more playfull with it,using rocks as kickers etc.
I think the latest AM was within 100g of the old Fr,so very close.AM uses a longer travel shock.

I have an argon fr and love it, it's one of those bikes that everyone who tries it instantly enjoys it and comments on the tracking, even when they've never heard of nicolai. Dunno about knolly but you won't be disappointed with a nic. My mouse finger is hovering over an ac at the moment.....