Playing the devils advocate here a bit, isn’t is selfish to expect someone to carry on living, even in a hellish delusion, for our own sake?
Death comes to us all one way or another but expecting someone to live for my personal needs does seem rather, selfish on my part.
I don’t think suicide is selfish but it is a terribly sad thing to do. I also think that a lot of people who do kill themselves do think they are either doing the planet, their friends or family a favour in removing themselves or are in such a terrible state of delusion, don’t fully understand what will become of their actions. Nullification rather than existence. These states are not permanent and it is unfortunate that some people are successful in killing themselves whilst in that state and don’ get a chance to come out the other side.

It’s not that Long since a regular poster on here comitted suicide. Since then I’ve got to know his wife fairly well. He was chronically and persistently depressed, unlike some descriptions I’ve read about where people are really just a bit low cos their life has gone a bit pear shaped in the short term or suffering from reactive depression.

Liz said Ray struggled to ignore the voices in his head and his hallucinations and delusions (sometime he believed he was a werewolf,and wished to take his own life to protect others) just to get through the day sometimes, and usually spent about three months out of every year on a locked psychiatric ward. However, he always seemed to be chirpy and upbeat although apparently he obsessed about suicide and self harmed constantly for the last twenty years of his life,and attempted it on 7 or 8 occasions before he succeeded and regularly needed diazepam just to get out of the house,which is why he had to build his workshop onto the house or for months on end he would not have been able to work.

Liz doesn’t consider him to have been selfish, because from very early on in their relationship, it was always considered to be a matter of “when”, rather than “if”, and if nothing else he’s at peace and doesn’t have to go through that much pain year in and year out.

If it was a loved one of mine going through that sort of suffering on a daily basis, I’d be really pissed off at them for killing themselves, but selfish? no not really, just really seriously ill and not in control of their own hormones,impulses and emotions.

Sorry if this is a bit reads a bit clunky but it’s quite upsetting to write.

Just my opinion, you of course are entitled to a different one.

Do you understand that?

Yes. Yes I do. However, I also have certain sympathy with those addicted to smoking and alcohol abuse – but I don’t think that smoking or alcohol abuse should be portrayed as normal or acceptable. I’m happy that I know contemplating suicide is not rational behaviour – but I believe the ‘normal’ view of taking your own life is a selfish act is the right one to have. Do you understand that?

I think unfortunately it’s just plain wrong to say that all people who do this are by definition, “insane”.

I’m happy that I know contemplating suicide is not rational behaviour

I’m pleases that you’re so happy and secure in your life that you know this to be an absolute fact. I’m also very sorry to tell you that it is completely wrong.

Go on then – what evidence do you have for suicide being a rational behaviour? I thought we were talking about people who would contemplate irrational behaviour (taking own life) because of depression or other problem. Suicide is not rational behaviour – and nor are the thoughts that lead to it.

Your statement regarded contemplating suicide. I’ve met several terminally ill folk who during their illness contemplated suicide. I can assure you they were very very rational in their approach to this.

If you were in the same situation would you commit suicide ?
That’s a rhetorical question by the way, as by your own logic, if you can provide me with an answer you are not rational.

RIP Jahwomble
They say every day takes courage, sometimes there’s just not enough.
(My post prompted by meeting a very nice lady out cycling this morning. You know who you are and to you I say thank you and have courage)
ps. that singletrack is awesome but I took the wrong line back onto the bridleway….the bike was a couple of seconds behind me.

I’m not going to go into my views on this because it’s not a fun subject for me.

On the back of where J_me is coming from, I just wanted to add that I’m very much in favour of euthanasia; if I were ever in a position where I was fit for nowt and not going to get any better (vegetative state, feeding tubes, all that malarky) then I’d far, far rather someone pulled the plug rather than prolonged the inevitable. It’s not fair on those around me, and it’s not fair on me.

j_me – fair enough – terminally ill is something different and I thought people had divided that out earlier in the thread. Other than if terminally ill, do you still think contemplating suicide is rational?

I would never be as presumptuous to judge.

Suicide is not rational behaviour – and nor are the thoughts that lead to it.

and still you have no compassion for them and when I suggest you should I am on a high horse.

I believe the ‘normal’ view of taking your own life is a selfish act is the right one to have. Do you understand that?

Well i understand you think this but i dont understand why. Given you accept that that no one rational would do it why have you no compassion for their position – are they not ill then? There are plenty of examples of people on here where I would not have liked to have walked in their shoes. I offer them compassion yet you call them selfish. I don’t accept that your view [of your own view] is either ‘normal’ or right.

Suicide is a very complicated phenomenon.

Selfish means that you are concerned mainly with your own needs and wishes. Perhaps in the pejorative application of the word suicide is selfish – but somehow I don’t consider it applicable because total annihilation from this existence is seen by some as the ultimate ‘pain relief’ from unassailable circumstances. If we are ill or injured it’s a natural human response to instinctively seek remedy in whatever form that might be. Suicide is an act of desperation that takes this reaction to the extreme.

ton, I note that you’ve encountered this before. http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/suicideknow-anyone

All the best.

are they not ill then?

yes they are and they deserve our every effort to help them and stop them taking their own life. What should not happen is the acceptance that suicide is somehow OK. It isn’t. It leaves behind whole swathes of families and friends who would have helped if they could and blame themselves for the act of one person. What I am clumsily saying is that suicide must not be seen as a solution and must have stigma attached as part of it’s prevention. If a self-centred act that negatively impacts your nearest and dearest isn’t seen as selfish (close to the definition of the word) then what is?

What I am clumsily saying is that suicide must not be seen as a solution and must have stigma attached as part of it’s prevention.

agreed up to a point ] and yes we want to prevent it. However we may actually be just making that person suffer for our benefit – again close to a definition of selfish- clash of rights and a more complicated picture.

I just typed a long reply but then thought better of it. Some petty semantics here but that’s all. I don’t need to be reading this. I need to be riding my bike.

Well. Hmm. I’m not sure this is useful, but I ought to join in. This forum is really a remarkable place. All these stories so generously told.

I tied my school tie around my neck when I was 11 (1962) because I was living in the dysfunctional family from hell. I tied the other end around the balcony balustrade and stepped off. Everything went black. Next thing I knew, I banged my head on the telephone table at the bottom of the stairs.

The only thing that saved me was the fact that the school tie was made of two pieces of material, stitched in the middle, and the stitching broke…

Since then, I’ve left home at nineteen, joined a band (drummer) at 28, left the band at 36 and got a proper job, discovered mountain biking at 40, and am here to irritate lots of people on a website forum at 59. Think what I would have missed.

My guitarist/singer/songwriter developed a severe personality disorder. We cancelled our final tour in the midst and I had to bring him home from Spain on a night flight as we were concerned he wanted to kill himself on stage that night. Not one of my more elevated experiences. After the band split up, he hung on for 12 years, then threw himself under a train at Wimbledon station.

I don’t have any answers, just my experiences. What I CAN say is, imagine dying and never discovering mountain biking…

Doesn’t bear thinking about.

This has been the most thought-provoking thread I’ve read for a long time…

It’s apparent that there are clear distinctions between assisted suicide (in which the subject, family and friends are given time to adjust to the idea) and the concept of a sudden, ‘cold’ suicide that leaves everyone asking questions that cannot be answered. Maybe the position that I’m in means that my approach to dying and its effects on all those around me are always a constant source of concern for me. I understand that people are wholly different regarding their approaches to despair and emptiness, so perhaps my view of suicide should be kept to myself and not used as a platform for what I consider is the ‘right thing’ to do.

Suicide is a very complicated phenomenon.

Selfish means that you are concerned mainly with your own needs and wishes. Perhaps in the pejorative application of the word suicide is selfish – but somehow I don’t consider it applicable because total annihilation from this existence is seen by some as the ultimate ‘pain relief’ from unassailable circumstances. If we are ill or injured it’s a natural human response to instinctively seek remedy in whatever form that might be. Suicide is an act of desperation that takes this reaction to the extreme.

ton, I note that you’ve encountered this before. http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/suicideknow-anyone

All the best.

This is the most informative post I’ve read. A nice touch, so thank you.

My ride was ace. It was a good day.

I’ve never thought of committing suicide, and had always thought of it as a selfish thing to do, but this thread has made me think a bit more.

I thought of it as selfish because someone at my school tried to commit suicide at the age of about 13, and nearly succeeded (or so we were told; I sometimes wonder if we were told that just to scare us). If she had succeeded, I would have been responsible for her success, because I didn’t know what was going on, and agreed to let her have some time on her own.

It was very much a “cry for help” suicide attempt; she thought she was pregnant, and couldn’t think of anything else to do. I think it scarred everyone in our year group, and it seems to me that it was all because she wanted attention, and wanted someone else to solve her problems, so yes, I’d still call that attempt selfish.

Now I’ve thought a bit more about it and read some of the comments, there are a lot of times where I wouldn’t call it selfish, even though I still wonder if I could have done something different which would have meant that another school friend didn’t commit suicide several years after I last saw her. She was apparently depressed when she did it, and I can believe that she couldn’t see any other way out. Yes, I’m left with the “what ifs?” but she isn’t suffering any longer.

And I’ve never seen anything wrong with euthanasia if the only other option is total paralysis or a painful death; maybe other people could live with being totally paralysed and dependent on others, but I’d hope that someone would give me the choice if it came to that.

Apologies for the long post, but also thanks for helping me sort my head out!

Some really good posts in this thread and one of the reasons i like this forum ie. one thread everyone is having a go at each other, the next you get threads like this.

As others in this thread i actually have tried to commit suicide and all i can say about the selfish thing is that you really do believe you are doing everyone else a favour by removing yourself.

The assumption of some posters seems to be that if you allowed other people to help rather than end it all you would be doing the right thing. The problem is that very often others can’t help. They will want to and they will try but the inability to help only makes you feel worse (and them) and convinces you even more that it would be best for all if you weren’t around. Part of considering suicide, at least for me, was the suffering i could see i was inflicting on my friends/family by my depression.

As someone else pointed out, everyone is different and your upbringing/outlook etc. will colour your view on this. But to simply state, as some have, that it is always selfish and the wrong thing to do shows a lack of understanding, an inability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, a lack of compassion if you will.

And if the person involved truly cannot live with themselves or their life how long would their loved ones want them to suffer ? For those who condemn suicide it looks like indefinitely.

I came as close as I ever have on a few occasions over the last few years… but I just couldn’t bring myself to go that route. Started looking for other ways out though, and was starting to make plans to head to Paris and join the Legion at one stage a year/18 months back. I figured if I couldn’t end it all I could at least disapear off the face of the planet at least for a few years.

Sometimes life just gets to the point that you can’t see a way out. You look at it thinking there is no purpose to going on, and you don’t think you would have the support you need to make the massive life changing decisions that need to be made. I thought that I thought making those changes would dissapoint my friends and family… and I couldn’t do that to them, especially given everything else that was going on around me at the time. Then I realised that they would probably cope better with me pressing the big red button on my current life situation, and making a fresh start, rather than throw my life away. A lot of friends were getting worried that I was about to end it all and took some serious interventions, with some friends that were really on the fringes of my life who had specialist knowledge of such things (mental health) taking me to one side and getting to the bottom of it all.

So I basically manned up, did what needed doing and haven’t looked back since 🙂

I’m not sure we / I ever lack compassion. You’re right we all view the world through are own paradigm so to say that I or anyone else demonstrate a lack of understanding is simplistic. For me I have seen too many lives wasted unnecessarily to start considering that it would be necessary for someone to take their own. Everyone of us is as important and unimportant as the next person; someone out there cares others do not – that’s life. We all have to put up with crap (agreed crap does not necessarily = depression) but why the heck should someone exit stage left at their own hand just as it suits / seems to them. The anger, guilt, frustration that lives on long after is all to palpable.

You are important to someone.

Have I been down in my life? Sure – depressed; not so sure. I guess my only answer is that at times I have done things that on reflection where a response to things to big to cope with which left me a long time after wondering why I took this or that route and ultimately wondering why I am here. Sometimes I think change, going in a different direction on a path less trodden / ridden is a coping mechanism.

Ultimately it is difficult to stop someone taking their own life, but in the three cases I’ve been directly involved with I wish I had tried / had known / had not stood at the graveside looking into the grieve left behind.

Condemn suicide? Before anyone thinks its a good idea speak to their family, wife, friends, nieghbours, pick a friend on a internet forum and ask how they would feel if you where not around.

Right.

Within five seconds I’d weighed it up

FAIL. People who commit suicide generally can’t weigh things up properly – this is part of the problem. Suicide isn’t just about being miserable. It’s about your mind being f’ed and not working properly.

what we endure now as a species is down to incompetent leadership and a lack of philosophical and spriritual teachers

Ah yes.. in the good old days no-one ever was miserable or mentally ill, and no-one topped themselves.. 🙄

It’s a quick, easy way out. Nothing more nothing less

Not entirely sure that’s the case – not sure you quite understand all the aspects of suicide.

I’m still here because I worked out how selfish it would have been

Yep, you saw sense therefore you weren’t as messed up as those folk that do it. Did you read the above comments? About how people are not doing it to escape their own problems, but making the ultimate sacrifice to make others’ lives better (as they see it?) Does that not make it incredibly noble rather than selfish?

I simply can’t begin to comprehend how anyone could contemplate it.

And you refrain from comment, which is the right thing to do.

Think of the impacts

You’re thinking as a rational person. Suicide is not a rational subject.

Some of you really need to work on your compassion/understanding

Yes. A lot of people here need to do a lot of learning.

Eg.

Normal person

Partner: I’m having an affair, divorcing you and I want the house and everything
Person: You ******* how could you do this to me you are out of order

Depressed person

Partner: I’m having an affair, divorcing you and I want the house and everything
Person: Yeah that seems reasonable, I’m such a worthless POS anyway. Take the house, you deserve it more than I do. Glad you finally saw sense and went with someone else etc etc etc.

You’re right we all view the world through are own paradigm so to say that I or anyone else demonstrate a lack of understanding is simplistic

Point well taken.

Key thing i was trying to say was that to “always” view it as selfish is simplistic, which i think applies to a lot of other things as well. There will always be different factors involved in every situation.

Ultimately it is difficult to stop someone taking their own life, but in the three cases I’ve been directly involved with I wish I had tried / had known / had not stood at the graveside looking into the grieve left behind

I understand this, i really do. But it may well have been that there was nothing you could have done and that in itself is a sad thing for both yourself and the person who has gone. The not knowing if you could have helped may well be the worse thing for those left behind but certainly from my own experience i can tell you that no matter how hard those close to me tried, and try they did, nothing they did helped me (and there is no blame attached there believe me)

Without wishing the be too autobiographical. Yes, almost daily since I was about 12. Clearly sometimes a lot more seriously than others and when it’s bad the only thought that has stopped me is the guilt I’d feel for those I’d leave behind. So whether it is or is not selfish I choose to think of it that way.

Yes I’ve considered it. Why not?

We all live for a while. We all die sooner or later. If life is shit and doesn’t seem to be getting any better, why not short circuit the process? Do it in a time, place and manner of your own choosing. Sure you might win the lottery the next day. On the other hand, you most probably won’t.

Me? I have a decent job, middle income, loving (I think/hope!) partner, but I serve no useful purpose on this planet. All I do is consume. My job (corporate events) is utterly pointless (although I’m good at it). I live to ride bikes, and (when I get a clear road) drive cars faster than I probably should. Basically stuff that immerses me. Takes me away from “the real world” ™. Is that a worthwhile use of a life? Probably not. Am I going to change it? Probably not – I’m not suddenly going to find a cure for cancer or feed the starving millions. So why not just finish it now and save everybody the grief of putting up with another waste of space for the next 40 years. There’s probably 5 people out of the billions on this planet who actually care about me, maybe 100 more who’ll go “ho hum” shrug there shoulders and move on. That’s a proportion not really worth worrying about is it?

I’ve occasionly discussed it loosely with my OH. She thinks it’s selfish. To which my reply is along the lines of “well if you think I care little enough for you to commit suicide, why should you waste time caring about me after the event”. Shrug shoulders and move on. It’s happened. You can’t change anything, so get on with your own life.

I don’t think it’s likely to happen imminently – riding bikes is far too much fun, but occasionally that little voice pipes up, going “twitch the bars just before the lorry passes. Go on…”. And then there’s the times when I simply can’t ride for shit and all I want is a big cliff.

Anyway. Me dinners ready, so i’d better go and eat it. 🙂

[list]Depressed person

Partner: I’m having an affair, divorcing you and I want the house and everything
Person: Yeah that seems reasonable, I’m such a worthless POS anyway. Take the house, you deserve it more than I do. Glad you finally saw sense and went with someone else etc etc etc.

Thought provoking stuff and this has made me think I may have got my take on our situation slightly wrong.

Namely: not just depressed people kill themselves under such circumstances! What about people with very low self-esteem who were otherwise reasonably happy up until the bombshell was dropped? What about people who are dependent on their partner in many ways? E.G. They don’t earn a good enough wage to support themselves, or they’ve delegated the running of the household to their partner, or they are semi-literate, poorly qualified etc. All of a sudden they are faced with a nasty expensive protracted divorce and don’t have a clue how they will tackle this. Then there is the fear of how they will get on with life afterwards.

All that needs to happen is a relatively short of period of extreme anxiety to send someone over the edge. I regard depression as an illness which is an enduring condition – a slow burn of dark misery that sucks the energy out of you over a long period of time.

My brother in law was not depressed, he was a happy in his job and worked hard, both on his house and in work. He had a happy positive disposition, despite the ugly experiences when he was young. He was a fitness fanatic and was out on his bike at every opportunity and they do say exercise is a great way to lift your spirits. He’d just spent a couple of grand on a carbon framed road bike before this crisis kicked off. Depressed people don’t have so much energy and I don’t remember him ever loafing about, he was always doing something.

The thing which I think sent him over the edge was the humiliation and shock of discovering the deception, the sickening thoughts that some other guy was sharing intimacy and passion with the love of HIS life and the subsequent brutality of the was my sister treated him over the break up. The shock of finding out the woman he’d loved all his adult life had secretly found a passion and love for someone else. I can hardly bear to think my only surviving sibling would do what she did to that guy – he was a genuinely top bloke!

Of course, a chroncially depressed person suddenly experiencing an intense period of aniety like this would probably have done the same thing.

“Depressed people don’t have so much energy”

Depression comes and goes – one minute OK, then black-dog day, or a week. Some of the most outwardly strong and cheerful people harbour deep psychological scars.

Depression comes and goes – one minute OK, then black-dog day, or a week. Some of the most outwardly strong and cheerful people harbour deep psychological scars.

Agreed, but I never saw him in a dark mood in 25 years.

I think the concealment the deep psycological scars of his childhood had a great deal to do with what happened however.

As one poster commented earlier on, the surviving loved one’s and family are left with many unanswered questions. Much angst!!!

Going waaaaay back up there somewhere – if someone wants to take their own life, why on earth do they hang themselves in their own homes for their own children to find them. At least piss off to some hotel somewhere where you don’t screw with your kids heads so directly.

Going waaaaay back up there somewhere – if someone wants to take their own life, why on earth do they hang themselves in their own homes for their own children to find them. At least piss off to some hotel somewhere where you don’t screw with your kids heads so directly.

Because they are not in their right mind and are either incorrectly evaluating the consequences or intent on doing exactly what you first describe: either way an indication of mental problems of one sort or another.

There’s probably 5 people out of the billions on this planet who actually care about me, maybe 100 more who’ll go “ho hum” shrug there shoulders and move on. That’s a proportion not really worth worrying about is it?

Sure it is.

Namely: not just depressed people kill themselves under such circumstances! What about people with very low self-esteem who were otherwise reasonably happy up until the bombshell was dropped? What about people who are dependent on their partner in many ways?

Quite right, there are many pathways to the same end. Well – five or six perhaps that I could think of.

I was not attempting to explain suicide, just illustrating how things are different when you’re experiencing that kind of depression. Logic doesn’t apply.

I think it’s pretty grim the amount of people who are treating suicide as selfish but I think most of the counter points have already been made.

Try being in a place so low that you actively, seriously believe the world would be a better place without you in it. With you gone people would be able to get on with their lives without you holding them back, causing them grief all the time. Try getting to that point and then not comitting suicide. Try getting up every day feeling like all you do is cause people pain and misery.

I’m glad that those who think it’s selfish to kill yourself have never been to that place, you’re lucky. But it also means you have great difficulty understanding the mindset of people who have. Try having a little more compassion.