Thatcher’s decision to privatise them all in the first place was an ideological one too. Not very pragmatic to sell off the crown jewels to make the wealthy wealthier.

It’s a stretch to compare nationalised railways with what’s going on in Venezuela but I see your point.

Thatcher’s decision to privatise them all in the first place was an ideological one too

One that IMO has got us into this mess.

Given the pigs ear that these people are making of running their own parties, it beggars belief that anyone would want them controlling more of our economic resources. And people say that Brexshit is self harm 😯

(They screwed up enough in the past, what does Einstein say about learning the lessons of history)

Given the pigs ear that these people are making of running their own parties, it beggars belief that anyone would want them controlling more of our economic resources. And people say that Brexshit is self harm

Given how private companies screwed up and caused the banking crash, who would ever want them running anything.

People are generally idiots.

Covenienetly ignoring the role of Central Banks (covering their previous mistakes) and regulators in the process. But I suppose Gordie did single handedly save the world, God bless him, so let’s not be too harsh…

Care to tell us which privatised industry is an example to all? As said the European model looks much better to base future nationalised resources on.

European model???

https://www.economist.com/news/business/21725797-french-state-mismanaging-its-valuable-corporate-assets-emmanuel-macron-serious-about

Start by answering the first part thm which privatised industry is awesome.
2nd part like the German rail companies etc who managed to be good and profitable enough to bid for UK franchises

whattiler has it – this is the core of the left wing argument against the EU – it would act as a brake on any socialist government.

Then you also have the right wing little englanders and racists like Hoey who are in the wrong party

fortunately most lefties can see ( as Corbyn has agreed) that the EU also acts as a brake on the right wing by ensuring a basic set of workers rights. Removing these rights is the main aim of the right wing leavers

tjagain, you’re right, those on the left who voted to leave the EU were basically taking a gamble on leaving the EU and in the future getting a socialist government, win/win.

If they didn’t get a socialist government and they are faced with beingoput of the EU with a right wing government intent on deregulating even more then the struggle carries on. Most of the old school left (certainly the ones I know), it’s all about the struggle, it’s what they live for.

Covenienetly ignoring the role of Central Banks (covering their previous mistakes) and regulators in the process. But I suppose Gordie did single handedly save the world, God bless him, so let’s not be too harsh…

Who we keep on being told are the problem , too much red tape. Too much regulation, etc etc.

True

Central banks have even taken to stealing of us these days in order to keep the bubble going – and then have the temerity to wonder why people are still gorging on expensive consumer credit

More tears ahead

I am still awaiting Jamba and THMs presdictions of the collapse of the euro and both Greece being kicked out and Germany leaving the euro that they both so confidently made years ago coming true

You read our posts now! Remarkable…and without abuse. Ok that’s not true….

The euro has already collapsed – unless your German. Plus you may need to check what I actually said. Not that that matters of course…

It says a lot about folk IF they are happy to subject large sections of vulnerable people to unemployment, wage deflation, loss of savings, substantial declines in living standards etc. How selfish is that?? For what reason? To sustain an unsustainable and flawed project.

With friends comrades like that, who needs enemies??

As THM appears to be answering me and as I addressed him I thought I would unblock to see. Waste of time that was

I don’t block Jamba – he is polite and does not bait folk. So no answer from THM apart from this:

The euro has already collapsed

Funny – I can still get Euros. NO one has left it. Its not collapsed

Indeed, waste of time facing up to reality. Ignore the damage to the poor young and elderly of Euroland. That’s what the euro elite do in spades, so you are in good company there. Pity those who suffer though, ingnord by those who prefer an “I’m alright jjack”* attitude

* hope I didn’t misspell that.

Of course you can still get a euro, and people are still suffering thanks to the political elite who don’t care.

I love it when the UK is considered a disaster area when unemployment is at/near lows and yet Euroland still has appaling levels of unemployment and yet is a success. That is a very interesting derivation of logic….

Always knew you were a brexiteer THM

I love it when the UK is considered a disaster area when unemployment is at/near lows and yet Euroland still has appaling levels of unemployment

Must be something in the air Gordi?

I have always been pro Europe but anti the Euro – for obvious and good reason

Also the UK has a huge amount of hidden unemployment that does not exist in euroland. Study somewhre on this thread IIRC.

But still. the euro has collapsed apparently. somewhere in an alternate reality

😀

Lest check what doesn’t exist and how big it is

I wonder what Eurostat says

In 2016 there were 9.481 million underemployed part-time workers in the EU-28. In addition to this, 8.782 million persons were available to work, but did not look for a job, and another 2.270 million persons were looking for jobs, without being able to start working in one within a short time period. These two last groups are normally jointly referred to as the potential additional labour force. In total this means that in 2016 in the EU-28, 20.533 million persons had some resemblance to being unemployed, without fulfilling all the ILO criteria for being so. This is almost the same amount of persons who were unemployed according to the ILO criteria (20.908 million).

Here’s an article that may be of interest to all the progressive remainers whose glasses are half empty. Written by an economics professor who backed remain.

I particularly liked this passage

For the stalwarts of the status quo, the events following 23 June have brought a catastrophe of historic proportions. No obvious way presents itself to reconstruct the antediluvian neoliberal order that served them so well

And this

I deeply regret leaving the European Union, but must accept that the probability is great that the June 2016 referendum will in due course result in a UK government committed to social democracy, not neoliberalism.

The painful truth is that the vast majority of British households will be better off out of the European Union with a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn than in the European Union under the yoke of a Conservative government led by anyone. Had the referendum I supported passed even by the narrowest majority, David Cameron would still reside in 10 Downing Street with no election until 2020. The right wing of the Labour party would still pose a constant threat to the progressive leader. At the very least we should temper our Brexit regret.

It has been very long time since the Law of Unintended Consequences rewarded us at all, much less so spectacularly.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/john-weeks/no-bregrets-why-brexit-vote-could-be-what-progressives-have-been-waiting-for

Interesting analysis in the Gruniad about how its impossible for the UK to do all the trade deals it needs in the timespan available. We simply do not have the people with the expertise and the timescales are absurd.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/04/britain-leave-single-market-trade-deal

More banks moving out of the UK
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/04/rbs-plans-move-to-amsterdam-for-post-brexit-hub

Car manufacturers in despair https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/04/uk-car-industry-facing-an-utterly-demoralising-brexit

NO control of UK fishing waters
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/03/eu-fishing-boats-can-still-operate-in-uk-waters-after-brexit-says-gove

Irish border makes hard brexit impossible and so on.

every day how bad a clusterfart it is gets more and more obvious.

A reduction in the banking sector may not be a bad thing according to this (albeit pre referendum) Guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/21/too-many-bankers-country-state-economy-inequality-productivity

cos public sector cannot provide an effective service
private sector is not a panacea. properly motivated public sector can provide quality services, at a profit, and pay back in to the coffers, reducing overall tax burden.
privatising profit and publicising debt is not the answer. ffs.

C’mon people there is no argument for leaving it’s guess work at best, the argument for staying is (primarily) based on existing fact and evidence.

But and it’s a big but… dogma is more attractive than facts and evidence. Jamaba, ninfan and to some extent a more reasoned THM are simply plying the dogma, with all due respect gentlemen (and I really do mean with respect) none of you or Boris or David or Theresa or Liam have a “scooby do” about post Brexit and there in lies the problem? It’s all bollocks and guess work which rarley leads to success.

The usual suspects will now do whatever it takes to to try and make this work – bleachy chicken, steroid beef, Danish fishing etc

Its worse than that oldmanmtb – we know all the things that will go wrong and are happening and the huge difficulties but leavers ignore all that for ideology and illusion

teamhurtmore – Member
You read our posts now! Remarkable…and without abuse. Ok that’s not true….

And yet thm still can’t tell me which privatised industry we should hold up as an example to others. What a surprise.

Meanwhile we have 19 months to get it all done and Theresa May has headed off for a 3 week walk (there’ll be another next year too no doubt).

With the amount of work necessary (see TJ’s articles above) no one in the cabinet should be having holiday until the job is done.

Old man – not sure why your are placing me in the same camp as Jamabas and Ninfan given that I was a remainer, who argued agaist their false points and noted the factual vacuum that lie behind their and the Brexshiteers’ case. BTW what has happend to Ninfan, has he been bullied, hounded, censored, banned into silence?

I do accept that I was on their side – and the side of commons sense and logic – when it comes to the Euro. How anyone would willing accept the misery that this has caused our fellow Europeans is beyond me.

But back to the point, unlike remoaners I am prepared to accept the decision of the democratic process and deal with what IS in front of us not what I WISH was in front of us. Two totally different things. There is nothing to be gained from rehashing the lost arguments or trying to bully people into submission by constantly posting factually incorrect arguments and wildly exaggerated claims – see above for evidence.of this.

So where I dio agree with Jamabs and Ninfan (again) is in debunking the BS that remoaners are using to make a tough job even tougher, although I don’t always agree with the points hat they make to do this.

Posting endless articles from rivals papers be it the guardian on one side or the Brexshit Bugle on the other adds nothing to the debate. We know their views and all we see is events distorted through their own particular magnifying lenses. Neither are particularly accurate.

So there is no dogma on my aside. Indeed I am one of the few who is flexible enough to argue for one choice but then to accept the result of others who rejected it.and then get on with dealing with the consequences. That is what we should all be doing not hiding behind entrenched ideology and illusion in an attempt to bully those who won the debate.

Mike, the reason for not answering directly is that the question is far too simplistic. I cannot imagine anyone arguing that they would want to return to the lack of choice, poor service, poor efficiency levels of the pre-privatised world. I am old enough to remember those days and they were grim. But each privatisation needs to be assessed on its own merits since there will always be positive and negatives. Even in the one that was only partial and badly executed, there has been a significant increase in the ability to deliver and serve large number include myself on a daily basis. It’s much, much better than it was. I accept that if I lived 30 miles east, however, I may have a different view.

Any way looking forward to some more remoaning exagerations over the next few days and months….always fun to read 😉

THM, it’s clear that you are delighted by brexit so long as you can blame it on someone else. Which is pretty cowardly IMO.

Well you are entitled to your opinion however wide of the mark/grossly exagerated it may be – unlike (it seems) Ninfan.

Meanwhile I have just hired an Italian, a Norwegian and a Pakistani all to work in London. That’s called getting on with things….

Any way looking forward to some more remoaning exagerations over the next few days and months….always fun to read

No exaggerations from THM, ever, obviously.

Indeed I am one of the few who is flexible enough to argue for one choice but then to accept the result of others who rejected it.

Sounds like May.

In fact, you always seem to back the position of whoever is the current Tory leader.

I think I might be repeating that observation, apologies if I am.

On the contrary, read ^

If there is anyone I am backing, it is the combination of Starmer and Hammnond – that’s the beauty of not be constrained by party dogma, you can say it as it is rather than as instructed by a party hierarchy.

Don’t feed the troll

Quality 😀

Ie, don’t engage with anyone who can pick apart your arguments (sic) with ease and on the basis of facts (remember them). Again see above…start with European unemployment falsehoods as an easy starter for ten!!

I think he’s just trying to help me avoid contact with a condecending, arrogant hypocrite… not sure his use of the word “troll” is fair… not a term I would use here and now.

I’m not wise enough to take such advice though.

If there is anyone I am backing, it is the combination of Starmer and Hammnond

What have we heard from those two that contradicts May’s position of trying to make the best of a bad decision?

“The best Brexit possible”

That’s what we have to do, as grown up as it sounds. 😉