I know this isn’t the best place to get 100% accurate info on thing slike this, but I thought it worth a quick post.

My wife works in social services. She’s just returned from 9 months maternity leave and is now working part time. She asked for a 3 day a week 60% corntract. her employers have agreed, but said that they could offer a 50% contract as permanent and the extra half day as a temporary contract until further notice as it would be easier to find a job share on 50%. She is being given a case load that reflects a 60% working arrangement. Ok so far.

Just found out today that her additional temporary half day a week or 10% is being paid as overtime. She has to claim the hours each month, she is being paid at her standard hourly rate (not time and a half). As such this means that 1/6th of the hours she works (which she is being given cases for) do not contribute to holiday / pension and she will not get paid if she is sick.

Firstly, is this legal? Even if it is, it feels really bad. The council are getting ultra cheap staffing out of this and my wife loses benefits and income for hours that she is contracted to work.

Any thoughts / comments?

Are the council obliged to give her any contract at less than 100%? If not then I’d say they are trying to be flexible in accommodating your wifes request.

I think they don’t even have to be flexible if there is no way they can do it (i.e. the law says you have to give it consideration but if you can’t provide the flexibility and can show why, you don’t need to). What they’ve said is we can guarantee 50% but the other 10% we’ll have to play by ear and doing it via overtime is probably easiest for payroll. The easiest thing for them to do is say 50% or 100% is all we can do but they’re being accommodating. To my mind your wife then needs to decide if the 50+10 works better than the straight 50.

As above, it sounds like they’re being flexible rather than just trying to screw your wife over. If it were me I’d give it a year and see how often she was working the extra hours, if it was virtually all the time she’d then have a decent case for getting it changed to a permanent 60% deal.

Surely it would be easier to offer a 50/50 jobshare, easier in the sense that 50% is more attractive than the 40% that you want to offer.
To that end the council is covering everything in the pension/holiday stakes and the extrra 10% is simply a bonus that provides flexibility for all parties.
Accept with grace what has been done and don’t be greedy. 👿

I understand all that and we’re considering whether 50% will work. Although they’re not suggesting that 60% doesn’t work, just that they “may” find it more difficult to recruit for another small contract at a later date. Although whether this is impacted on by my wife is unclear as she’s currently doing a case load that, although is less than full time staff, is already greater than the council target for 100% staff.

The question I have is can you have what are, to all intents and purposes, contracted hours (she MUST attend the extra half day a week, it’s not optional whether she turns up), yet not pay her sick leave, or contribute to holiday for those hours?

We’ve been asking clarification on the payment / contractual position from them since about 2 months before she returned to work. The story keeps changing. She still doesn’t have a change to her contract in writing and all this stuff about the 10% has also been verbal. She’s now been back at work for 2 weeks.

TBH, it’s to be expected from a council department that seems to be managed through bullying and fear rather than team work and cooperation. Needless to say we’re looking at other employment options once she’s covered her maternity pay.

And thanks for suggesting we’re greedy. That’s completely what we are. Would you do work that you weren’t appropriately paid for? It’s not as if child protection is easy or acceptably paid as it is. It’s no wonder that 2-3 members of staff are off with stress at any one time and that staff turnover is so great.

Unfortunately, the way that my wife has been treated over the last 4 years at the council, this is just another layer of crap to add to the rest.

Live with it then.

..and there’s no other person to currently job share with and this won’t be looked at or addressed until the next recruitment round. HR and payrole have said that it would be very easy to have a 60% contract that could be reduced to 50% at any time and that what is being suggested is very irregular. But they can only do what management tell them.

The employer has to show why they cannot possibly allow the flexible working arrangements – ie you have the right to get flexible working [ f you have kids] and they have to show why they cannot not do this rather than show that it would be a pain to do it- as they are accommodating the request in reality this will be rather hard for them to show
She should have a contract for 60%
Speak to a union rep or an employment lawyer

It is not clear from your post what her contract is as you mention how she has to claim them not what the contract says does it say .6 in the contract?

And thanks for suggesting we’re greedy.

They pay you what you’re entitled to and is fair in offer, 50%, and pay at the required level. You want 10% extra, and they accommodate you and now you want even more.
Yes, I’d say that’s greedy.

druidh – I think we may well have to, but it doesn’t mean I think we should.

I also don’t know what will happen if she actually is sick or goes on holiday. No-one else takes on her cases while she is. This will mean she’ll have to do further additional hours (this time unpaid) to make up for sickness or holiday.

Anyway, meeting now. Thanks for the replies – even if they weren’t what I’d wanted to hear.

Id say it was greedy to not respect a ban from a forum and have more than one log on

Back to type so soon – did i miss the threads mourning your loss?

davidjones15 – only found out after starting work that this 10% wasn’t being paid in the same way as rest – as above. It’s hard to make decisions without the full information. I don’t know how wanting to do more work and getting paid for it reasonably is greedy, especially if it’s not difficult at all for that to happen.

It is being paid it just has to be claimed. I have had council contracts where i have to submit my hours but I still had a contact for all those hours

Again are you sure she does not have a .6 contract ?

I don’t know how wanting to do more work and getting paid for it reasonably is greedy, especially if it’s not difficult at all for that to happen.

I’m saying that being paid for it is perfectly reasonable, but it probably should be considered overtime and I wouldn’t expect overtime to contribute to pension/holidays. This is the greed bit. The council surely wants to hedge their bets by offering 50% to another workshare employee and 40% probably isn’t a good pitch, only the other hand it might work.
Everyone gets the flexibility they want, winners all round, I’d say.

Why would she do unpaid hours at work? I can’t believe the council are asking her to do this.

Brilliant he cannot answer back..its a dream come true 😉

Did I miss something (double log-on, bans etc)?

Well David jones seems less interested in asking about than you do – interesting eh

Druidh even flashy has worked it out

* whistles *

Still not a clue. I blame my advancing years.

* off to light pipe and put slippers on *

http://www.worksmart.org.uk/rights/i_work_a_lot_of_overtime_does

2 mins on google to get an answer.

Yup doesn’t count towards holidays and paid single rate for part-time workers unless you go over full time hours.

To me sounds like they been fair, it’s not exactly what you wanted but they’ve offered the best they can in order to allow them to employ someone else part-time.

Cheers for the additional answers. Gearfreak, I think this might be slightly different. That talks about uncontracted overtime hours. They are contracted overtime hours – she has to work them under the current arrangement and her caseload has been calculated based on a 3 day week, not a 2.5 day week. I know she doesn’t get holiday etc for overtime, but I’m asking whether it’s straight and normal to have to undertake overtime and it still be classed as such?

Junkyard – definitely a 50% contract on paper.

Druidh, re: the unpaid hours thing. Welcome to social services. You have x cases. If something doesn’t get done in the statutory timescales on any one of the x cases, management will do all they can to deflect the blame onto the overworked front line workers (we see this in the press all the time). The only way to maintain a level of input that allows you to achieve the required statutory outcomes and outputs is to work hours you don’t get paid for. Along with poor pay, poor staff support and the resultant staff morale and you can see why social services is a fairly unattractive career destination and well under-resourced.

My wife has been through disciplinary proceedings before after failing to complete all her file recording on time despite meeting her targets regarding visits / supervisions / court reports etc. Too many cases and too little time is not seen as a reasonable defense. Only solution is to work longer hours unpaid. It’s crap and a vicious circle, but appears to be the accepted way of it.

Cheers for the additional answers.

Gearfreak – I think this might be slightly different. That talks about uncontracted overtime hours. They are contracted overtime hours – she has to work them under the current arrangement and her caseload has been calculated based on a 3 day week, not a 2.5 day week. I know she doesn’t get holiday etc for overtime, but I’m asking whether it’s straight and normal to have to undertake overtime and it still be classed as such?

Junkyard – definitely a 50% contract on paper.

Drac – They won’t be employing anyone else as yet, just in what they describe as “the next recruitment round” some time next year. At which point her contract could be altered from 60% to 50%. HR and payroll are happy with this, it’s just her line manager who isn’t. Other staff doing the same role as her within social services have 40% / 60% / 80% contracts – why should she be paid less and have fewer benefits for the same thing?

Druidh, re: the unpaid hours thing. Welcome to social services. You have x cases. If something doesn’t get done in the statutory timescales on any one of the x cases, management will do all they can to deflect the blame onto the overworked front line workers (we see this in the press all the time). The only way to maintain a level of input that allows you to achieve the required statutory outcomes and outputs is to work hours you don’t get paid for. Along with poor pay, poor staff support and the resultant staff morale and you can see why social services is a fairly unattractive career destination and well under-resourced.

My wife has been through disciplinary proceedings before after failing to complete all her file recording on time despite meeting her targets regarding visits / supervisions / court reports etc. Too many cases and too little time is not seen as a reasonable defense. Only solution is to work longer hours unpaid. It’s crap and a vicious circle, but appears to be the accepted way of it.

Of course it’s legal.

EDIT: Don’t mean to be an @rse here btw ..

Your wife asked for a flexible arrangement and she’s been offered one. IMO the employer (council) isn’t obliged to offer here such an arrangement, they could have said full time or nought. By making the additional time un-contracted if things get more difficult budget wise for the council they can reduce your wife’s hours. With regard to cost savings (eg no pension) the council are having to tighten their belts, they are saving a little money on your wife’s contract – doesn’t that make sense ?

I would get legal advice tbh

See here for example and get some info in writing
I am confused as to why they have rejected the application and yet given then application as well
I can only assume it is to save money on the .1 part
I suspect you will find some people on .4 contracts and .6 within the organisation
https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working/overview

Rejecting an application

The employer’s letter must include:

the business reasons for rejecting the application
an explanation about how flexible working affects their business
how the employee can appeal
Employers can only reject an application for one of the following reasons:

extra costs which would damage the business
the business’s wouldn’t be able to meet customer demand
the work can’t be reorganised among other staff
people couldn’t be recruited to do the work
flexible working would have an effect on quality and performance
there’s a lack of work to do during the proposed working times
the business is planning changes to the workforce
If the employer doesn’t agree to the request, they must have a meeting with the employee to discuss the reasons.

see also
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1616

I’m on a similar contract now, I work 2 days one week, 3 the next with the company having an option on an extra day per week, paid as single rate OT or a lieu day.

I’ve no idea whether on not my workload has been calculated for a 50% contract or just made up as they went along.
Of course working in PLC land means that I never return from days off or holiday to find a mountain of work, everything has been sorted out whilst I was away, no emails waiting, nothing.

Jambalaya – they do, of course, have to consider flexible working and they have which we are happy with and grateful for. We are just questioning whether the approach they’ve taken regarding pay is ok or not. It’s very easy for part of a contract to be regarded as temporary so that the employer can, should they wish, remove it at any time so the only benefit to the employer is a cost one not a flexibility one.

Jota – that’s about as similar as it gets to my Wife’s situation, I suppose. If it was exactly like that we’d be fine with it. It’s the fact that my wife is obliged to be in work 3 days (by the demand of the number of cases she has and the amount of time each is supposed to take and within the agreement between her and management), but only has a contract for 2.5 days. Although the extra half day is paid as overtime it is not treated as such by management.

Junkyard – thanks for info. Not seen the ACAS one before. Would rather not have to get legal advice, but the way she has been treating during, and after her pregnancy suggests we might need to at some point.