If you are saying that police drivers are over confident and drive beyond their ability, I agree. Signing up to the police does not improve your vision or reflexes. Training and practice do but only up to a point.

The laws of physics are the same for all of us and being able to give a running commentary of what you are doing at speed does not make that speed any safer. The tractor will still pull out and you’ll have no more chance of stopping than any other driver. When you swerve to go around it and a car comes the other way all the training and practice you’ve done suddenly become useless – there’s nowhere to go.

I have not read the whole thread but top rated police drivers are some of the best drivers in the world.

One of the motorcycle magazines set up some testing on a circuit – the police where faster than any of the journalists by a long way, not much slower than BTTC and BSB riders and drivers and the journos were genuinely respectful of just how good they ( the police) are. this is the elite drivers – not the plod in a panda car

Because some people here are acting like tool bags.

That’s your interpretation. Others might suggest they’re the ones trying to talk some sense into somebody who’s a brilliant driver yet incapable of passing the driving test.

“But you are talking about a subject that you clearly know very little about.”

See what I mean about police officers being condescending, Nonsense.

All you know about me is that I’m someone that advocates cautious, considerate driving who is encouraging STW members to drive to a standard as good or better than they did when they passed their test. You also know I object to the police driving fast on anything other than life or death missions because they will inevitably put the public at greater risk.

Why insult me by claiming I know nothing about driving and in particular the hazards of high-speed driving on public roads?

Motoring ournalists are good with their pens, not behind the wheel TJ. If you were comparing the police to that years MSA champions I suspect the results would have been rather different (Edit, I see they were). It’s irrelevent anyway because here we a considering what is an appropriate driving style on the public road where people walk, ride bikes and potter about in cars.

I said you know nothing about police driving not driving per se. That’s not condescending, it’s true. The vast majority of police driver training is about observation and hazard perception, not just driving fast. Which is exactly what you are advocating. Not sure I get your point tbh?

Edukator if you ever get robbed or knocked off your bike by a driver who tries to make off, think about how quickly you might want me or a colleague to come to your assistance. I never intended to pee you off or make you feel belittled. If you’re near London you can always email me and come on a drive at work to see if you think I’m safe or not?

I’m saying no amount of observation and hazard perception training can offset let alone eliminate the increased risk with the speeds used in pursuit style driving. Pursuit style driving by specifically trained drivers should be severely restricted and the vast majority of police drivers should simply be told “don’t or you’re fired”.

Police driving gods with super human powers that mean they can drive fast and safe is a myth. I can drive very fast, I also know that if I do it for long enough on a public road I’ll get caught out, however observant and perceptive I am – so I don’t.

This is a case in point. Most police drivers don’t end up in pursuits as they are only trained in the initial phase and it is specifically trained drivers who pursue people if the reason is sufficiently serious for example if they are a danger to the public. A huge number of police pursuits are stopped by the police exactly because it is too dangerous to continue! Your perception of what happens may not be accurate.

Good, so if they are only allowed to pursue very occasionally how do police drivers manage to have and provoke so many accidents? Taking personal initiatives they shouldn’t? Misusing a certain level of impunity?

IIRC somoen in a control station make sth ecall not the driver so it is more subjective and they cannot get caught up in the heat of the moment.
It is a tough call risk lives pursuing them or let everyone go when the drive like a loon….neither is a great choice tbh. I suspect the crims prefer the later whether it would be better [ whatever measure would we use?] who knows and i dont see how you could provide reliable evidence one way or the other tbh.

That’s it I throw in the towel. You win. The police are all barstewards who do the job to drive like idiots and beat people up. Go back over the statistics and decide for yourself, given the nature of the job they do and the type of driving they are required to do, and the number of emergency calls they deal with, if you think the stats are unreasonable. What about ambulance drivers? Fire engines? Or are they ok because they don’t oppress the proletariat.

Junkyard the decision can be made by the driver or by the control Inspector who is “managing” the pursuit.

It’s nice when someone’s so obvious about the axe they wish to grind, avoids confusion.

Edukator – Member

Good, so if they are only allowed to pursue very occasionally how do police drivers
manage to have and provoke so many accidents?

You think the police only have accidents during pursuits?

No, Northwind. If you put the quote from Nottingham Uni into Google it’ll no doubt throw up the rest of the report with a breakdown.

I think there would be a lot less police accidents if officers stuck to the type of driving the law requires of them and every other driver, Nonsense. Emergency calls alone don’t account for the poor record as the Nottingham study demonstrates.

It’s not a question of win or lose an arguement/discussion on the Net. It’s a case of being objective and in the case of the police, self-critical.

As for the image of the police, you yourselves are responsible for that. Not being seen driving badly would help your cause.

As for ambulances and fire engines with blue lights and sirens on, the urgency is more evident than a police car chasing down a stolen moped.

Edukator – once again you are talking about something you know diddly squat about.

Police pursuit drivers are very good indeed and yes the high level of training means they do see hazards earlier than the norm and also can react more appropriately.

So yes – they can drive safely faster than you can drive safely – because they are more highly skilled.

This is 25 years old but gives you an idea of how good they are .

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTN5X4JZFjU[/video]

Educator all police collisions aren’t as a result of chasing a stolen moped ffs! Most of the time the police are on blue light rubs because they are responding to emergency calls from the public. Do you have any idea how many life threatening incidents the police deal with? You clearly have an axe to grind with the police and have a very poor understanding of the way they work. I’ll leave you to your misguided ranting and go to work for the night shift. I’ll be sure to ask all the people who made the emergency calls if they would have been happier if I observed speed limits and keep left bollards when I get to them.

TJ What does the driver say at 7:40 in?

Who do the elite of police trainers get trained by TJ? Russ Swift among others. I was the other driver in the display team in the early years. He did the Montego ad and went on to stardom, I moved to France and dropped motorsport in favour of more enjoyable sports. We were both BTRDA and RAC (MSA) British autotest champions and both did the home international rally series (National Breakdown, Welsh, the Circuit of Ireland, Ulster) with the odd class win.

If with all that experience I don’t consider I have any magical qualities that mean it’s safe for me to drive faster than anybody else then why would I think all those police motor club members (including the elite of police drivers) I used to drive rings around have?

Wow – you really don’t have a clue do you. 🙄

so you are a better driver than a BTCC driver who was impressed by how good the police drivers are? You are a full time advanced police trainer at Hendon are you?

In an autotest mini special I’ll say definitely, yes. In a rally car in a forest most probably yes. Against the BTCC driver on a circuit, no. Against the police drivers of my day the answer was, yes.

Again it’s irrelevant, my point is that too many police officers drive beyond their ability on public roads and their accident rate confirms my assertion. Too many think they are heros with special powers racing around saving the world when in fact most of their racing around is futile and the world would be a safer place if they slowed down.

Bollox edukator. evidence?

there are a very few police pursuit / advanced / level 3 drivers and thier accident rate is good.

Anyone who knows them and knows how they ride and drive knows how good they are.

Someone who did a bit of amateur motorsport a long time ago is simply not in the same class.

do you actually know anything about advanced driving / pursuit driving?

You don’t seem to have grasped it yet do you TJ. I only contribute to threads where I have enough experience to make a useful contribution. Today that’s been this thread, one about bivvying in France where I’ve lived and bivvied since 1987, one about cover versions (contributing a cover version), one about anecdotic experience of Googling friends (contributing an anecdote) and I think that’s it.

On previous occcasions you’ve accused me of knowing nothing about legal systems despite the fact court work was a part of my job in both the UK and France. You’ve been among those that have contested my knowledge of atmospheric pollution when I ran Welsh Water’s project in the 80s and my name was the first on the first paper published (when I was rallying ironically enough, and yes I did appreciate the irony at the time).

If you too stuck to posting on threads on subjects in which you have some depth of knowledge rather than taking sides from a position of ignorance then STW would be a better place, TJ. Like the sterotypical copper, Nonsense, you unwisely make the assumption your adversary is thick and poorly informed.

Yeah, and bivy only has one v.

And now you’ve lost it and started getting insulting, TJ. “Bollox” is calling me a liar. You’re out of your depth and throwing your weight around, typical. You just have to get involved in every debate and when can’t produce a reasoned argument you start your bullying. Good night, TJ, sleep well.

Believe me there are lots of police drivers trying to get into the MSA hall of fame but don’t have the ability. I’m already there, amateur or not.

Can somebody save me some time and let me know whether there’s anything worth reading in this TF/edu argument?

There isn’t.

Ok educator

On the UK legal sytem I proved you wrong – and you were clearly out of your depth.

On this one you are spouting with little knowledges and again clearly out of your depth
1) when did you train police advanced drivers?
2) what is your experience of police advanced driving
3) what is you evidence for your assertion that advanced drivers crash a lot?

The fact that you could compete with cops in a minor form of amateur motorsport many years ago does not mean you know anything about police advanced driving training now – the very fact you claim a stunt driver trains them is laughable.

Re police driving standards. Some interesting comments and I’m inclined to agree with some of what Edukator says. Collision stats in many forces are unacceptably high. A reflection in less time and effort spent training standard response drivers mostly. Comes back to attitude again mostly, whatever the shout it’s always better to arrive a few seconds later than not at all.

The liver run is in many ways a classic example. Can’t remember which section it is but front seat passenger loses it at one point (on the M25?) and waves his fist out of the window at a lorry driver who held them up. Unprofessional and unacceptable.

Again TJ what does the driver you cite as a great example say 7 minutes and 40 seconds into your video?
As you’re so keen on evidence, we’ll call it exhibit A.

Again TJ what does the driver you cite as a great example say 7 minutes and 40 seconds into your video?

I’ll save you the bother he says “if a pedestrian had come out between the traffic I don’t know that I could have avoided them”.

Both cars have lights and sirens going and they are on a genuine emergency delivering a liver for transplant.

It’s a balance of risks. Would you honestly rather they took their time, stuck to the Highway Code and let someone die, just on the off chance that the world’s doziest pedestrian steps in front of them?

It’s all relative… He’s weighing up the very small chance that someone steps out, against the far more certain consequences of what will happen if they don’t make the drop.

The question is, who in this thread is qualified to say exactly what risks are acceptable and what aren’t… Folk are holding up these accident stats as if they’re meaningful, but what they lack is any indication of the alternatives. Do you think if the police slowed down at all times there’d be no consequences?

Any casual observer can see why, too many drive too fast on missions that simply aren’t life or death.

And there lies one of the problems facing the emergency services – more often than not you simply don’t know which calls are a matter of life and death.

I responded to 10 calls today and I can honestly say that not one was immediately life threatening. BUT…..to give two examples – was the fitting baby simply too hot or was it due to meningitis? Was the 90 year old gasping for breath suffering from a chest infection or about to go into cardiac arrest? Same with the Police. How are they to know that an ongoing fight will not involve knives and end with a fatal stabbing.

There is no way of knowing until you get there but the potential consequences of a delay are huge. Can you imagine the headlines if an ambulance took 10 minutes to drive 6 miles and a child died?

I drive fairly quickly but I can honestly say, in my judgement, I never take a risk, not even a calculated one (and yes, I am very aware of the dangers inherent in high speed driving) as the penalties if found guilty of causing an accident are likely to be much higher when you have authority to exceed the speed limit and other traffic regulations. Very few have the ‘gung-ho’ attitude you appear to be alluding to and the stress levels involved are high.

The fact that you could compete with cops in a minor form of amateur motorsport many years ago does not mean you know anything about police advanced driving training now – the very fact you claim a stunt driver trains them is laughable.

I can see police driver training from work. spend all day doing handbrake turns , u turns , slides round cones etc..some would claim this is stunt driving…i like to think they are just learning how to handle a car at its limits…better to learn to control a slide on a airfield than on a road i would of thought.
Oh and in 15 yrs of very amateur motorsport any fellow competitors that have been police drivers have been average at best.

I only contribute to threads where I have enough experience to make a useful contribution.

Presumably you differentiate between ‘contribute’ and ‘troll’ then?

I passed on my 3rd attempt. The first time i had too many minors and the scond time i pulled out on a duel carriageway in front of a lorry but it’s not as bad as it sounds! They say hesitation is the biggest cause of crashes and i just didn’t hesitate. He was a good 200 yards away so i floored it but the examiner said that he had to break which was a load of balls!

oh and if you need insurance for a modified then check these out, they actually think about the risk instead of just thinking of a number and sticking 000’s behind it. http://www.acorninsure.co.uk/car-insurance/modified-car-insurance/