Simple really, Starbucks, Costa, Nero all taste terrible,
McDonald’s is fair trade coffee but its McDonald’s so it’s gonna taste like stale piss.

McDonalds coffee is ok, as are all those others you mention.

I was thinking the same thing, nothing at all wrong with McDonalds Coffee.
And although I don’t use the others mentioned often, they all seem pretty good to me.

I’ve heard bad things about Fairtrade from a friend who is (self described) an “Eco Hippy” but I don’t know enough about why to really comment much.

I will ask him to tell me again 🙂

Some people are so militantly eco, they define themselves as warriors, so that if anything is adopted on a large scale by big companies it becomes automatically evil by association.

Which is a bit stupid imo, because you are just shooting yourself in the foot. Nothing will be achieved if we just argue all the time.

Nothing will be achieved if we just argue all the time.

STW in a sentence. 😉

Fair Trade just sounds like a conscience appeaser for resource plundering.

Pay 3rd world landowners western rates for their crops. They then turn over more and more of their land to the high returns this generates.

This reduces the crop area for staples to sell to the locals and leads to famines because the locals can’t afford to pay western prices for food.

If I’m wrong, then there’s no famine in Africa.

So what’s the alternative?

Some people are so militantly eco, they define themselves as warriors, so that if anything is adopted on a large scale by big companies it becomes automatically evil by association.

I agree, but I don’t think that’s the case with my “Eco Hippy” mate to be honest.
He seemed to think that Fairtrade hadn’t actually achieved anything meaningful for the growers, and said they were no better off than they were before in reality.

I will check though, as he may have just been blurting anti “Big Corp” stuff?
but that’s not generally his style.

Pay 3rd world landowners western rates for their crops. They then turn over more and more of their land to the high returns this generates.

This reduces the crop area for staples to sell to the locals and leads to famines because the locals can’t afford to pay western prices for food.

If I’m wrong, then there’s no famine in Africa.

You were wrong at the point where you said paying western rates. Fairtrade rates have no comparison to western rates- fraction of the rate but better than others in their locality. I think the point of fairtrade was as a health check that in capitalism’s never ending squeeze of margins those at the bottom of the pile did not have their margins squeezed to the point where maintaining any sort of civilised way of life was not possible – i.e. the firm at the top of the chain gets to market their product in a postive way because the farmers that supply them can do so whilst paying and treating their workers reasonably. This seems a good ambition to me. If of couse this actually is how it works in the real work is not something I’m entirely sure anyone here would be able to do anything other than speculate on. I ride with a guy who is a buyer of fruit, veg and flowers overseas (pretty much the man from del monte!) and I’ll get his informed opinion of if it actually works.

Also probably worth pointing out that Fairtrade international itself is a non profit organisation.

What’s a western rate for coffee, incidentally?

Just did a bit of googling, seems most people’s objections revolve around the idea that farmers have no incentive to improve production capability with technology and investment. The counter from pro-fair traders was that they usually do invest in infrastructure and also schools, health etc for the community.

Seems broadly similar to the concept of minimum wage. The opponents were suggesting that having to fight for market share and prices would force farmers to improve their offering, but that sounds like right wing nonsense to me. When you’re a penniless farmer struggling to survive, you’re unlikely to be able come up with a killer business idea. And even if you do, you gain income at the expense of someone else.

Surely the coffee market is fixed, as far as the producers are concerned..? So if you sell more coffee your neighbour has to sell less. Sure, Starbucks etc can grow their businesses, but as far as the producers are concerned it’s an external factor.

The point is that the rich Western corporations buying coffee already have a massive advantage. Fair Trade ideas are simply an attempt to redress the balance.

Precisely. There is a structural imbalance of power which means that market forces leave us paying £2.50 for a latte, and the growers without enough to live on. Fair Trade, for all its faults, is a small attempt to improve the lives of those who need it most.

At the end of a long supply line is a another poor sod, just like me trying to make a decent living. If I can afford it (and I can’t always afford it) I have no problem paying a few pence extra to give him/her a fair price for their product therefore if I can afford it I buy fair trade.

McDonalds coffee is ok, as are all those others you mention.

I was thinking the same thing, nothing at all wrong with McDonalds Coffee.
And although I don’t use the others mentioned often, they all seem pretty good to me.

Really? Putting ethics and your opinion aside 😉 this threads getting out of hand!
Starbucks coffee – “ok” & “pretty good”??
I can accept McDonald’s been ok, on the rare occasion (stopped taking the chance after too many bad cups, along side a change in attitude), Costa & Nero not inspiring me much either but Starbucks?

Nope you’ve both clearly drunk too much and got coffee delirium, verbal diarrhoea, taste buds are knacked. Check with your GP!

Nope you’ve both clearly drunk too much and got coffee delirium, verbal diarrhoea, taste buds are knacked. Check with your GP!

Nah, I’m just not an STW coffee expert.

I drink instant too.

And I enjoy it.

Costa & Nero not inspiring me much either but Starbucks?

You are letting your middle-class irrational angst get in the way. Nothing at all wrong with Starbucks coffee – precisely roasted and good quality beans (yes, have seen it for myself) and, if you buy it unadulterated, a reasonable coffee. Try some of their beans for yourself with your own grinder at home to check.
I’m not sure how holy you believe your taste buds to be.

I drink instant too.

I would too but it goes straight through me 😐

but Starbucks?

Yep. Starbucks isn’t all toffee nut lattes with whip. A flat white there is very nice. They also have whole milk available which most places don’t have.

It’s not the best thing ever, but as above it’s decent enough, and of a similar grade to almost all coffee shops. The choice between Costa, Nero and Starbucks is purely personal taste, and anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a snob or a wannabe corporate justice warrior.

Starbucks coffee in whole bean form is easily the best available in my local supermarkets too.

I find Starbuck’s coffee to be weak pish. Costa is ok though.

I would too but it goes straight through me 

Add this to your whinging, and i can’t help thinking you need to HTFU. 😉

HTFU

Really though?!

I buy almost all of my coffee from a local place who source the beans direct from the countries of origin from selected estates. They tell me the farms are selected to not exploit the people working there but I only have their word for it.

Short of getting on a plane, I think I’ve done what I can.

I buy almost all of my coffee from a local place who source the beans direct from the countries of origin from selected estates. They tell me the farms are selected to not exploit the people working there but I only have their word for it.

Short of getting on a plane, I think I’ve done what I can.

Its a long shot but atleast theres a chance that your doing the right thing,

Hows the quality/cost?

They tell me the farms are selected to not exploit the people working there but I only have their word for it.

And they most likely only have the farm owners word for it…

I think I’ve done what I can

Hmm.. you know those houses people convert to cannabis growing factories – maybe you could do the same for coffee?

Just back in from TKMax getting some red nose day stuff for kids on Friday. Couldn’t see a reason not to pay £2.99 for this stovetop. Is this the beginning of a slippery slope? Is stovetopping the singlespeeding of coffetrackworld?

Ok, what pre-ground for stovetopping? This Taylor’s Rich Italian is just a bit bitter, but nice with 1/4 teaspoon of sugar.

Is stovetopping the singlespeeding of coffetrackworld?

Yes.

As for the coffee being bitter – you probably had too much heat. Coffee is burned and made bitter by boiling water – it needs temps just under boiling, 95 degrees I think.

This is why I suggest low heat with these things. You want the water to stay below boiling and the steam given off to gently push the hot water through the thing. If it starts to gush out then it’s boiling, and the coffee will be more bitter.

Taylors is ok but imo Starbucks from the supermarket is better. Ideally, you want as dark/strong coffee as you can get imo.

Most things I’ve had fair trade either taste like shit or falls to bits within a month and because of that I normally avoid the label.

Most things I’ve had fair trade either taste like shit or falls to bits within a month

Definitely not my experience at all. Why would it? It’s not some mumbo jumbo, it just means that the producers get a bit more money.

Here’s a thought…

7.You’re just going to have to trust me!

Tried some of the coffee before, really nice but can I trust him on basis that he says we’re gonna have to trust him!

Do people actually believe the posters/adverts on TV about how the producer gets a fair deal? How they are all smiling when they’ve just signed a wonderful deal that will provide education and new clothes for their children?

Guess they must do, which is why they keep running the marketing campaigns…

I’ve never seen a TV ad.

But I’d need some evidence against Fair Trade. Do you have any?

Is stovetopping the singlespeeding of coffetrackworld?

No. It’s an Apollo rampage from Halfords.

One of these (on the right)

And one of these hair shirt hand grinders

Well your experience of the stuff is better than mine then molgrips.

The first fair trade coffee that I had was Coffee Direct – didn’t like that much at all.

For instant I use Kenco Millicano which is Rainforest Alliance certified .

Ok, what pre-ground for stovetopping?

I really rate Sainsburys own brand Espresso blend, you won’t get many points for niche coffee, but it is fair trade.

A shout for Waitrose (I know, I know…we shop online with Ocado) Italian Roast beans if you’re grinding yourself.

I bought a big jar of Tesco value coffee earlier for 54p, i think thats a fair trade…

Fair Trade, UTZ and Rainforest Alliance at least ensure that growers make a better living than the average in their country and ensure that they are able to make a living (but certainly not western!) wage. For me thats a start, amd better than the alternative which is to leave them to the free market of unscrupilous commodity traders.
The oncost per cup is really negligable.
Also must say that I would take a McD coffee over starbucks any day.

Thanks for the condescending, narrow minded, preaching original post.

Is stovetopping the singlespeeding of coffetrackworld?
Yes.

As for the coffee being bitter – you probably had too much heat. Coffee is burned and made bitter by boiling water – it needs temps just under boiling, 95 degrees I think.

This is why I suggest low heat with these things. You want the water to stay below boiling and the steam given off to gently push the hot water through the thing. If it starts to gush out then it’s boiling, and the coffee will be more bitter.

Taylors is ok but imo Starbucks from the supermarket is better. Ideally, you want as dark/strong coffee as you can get imo.

Over heating is possibly causing issues though is one of only a number of factors that might be affecting the bitterness, the other 2 common ones are bean quality and over extraction.

No pre-ground coffee is going to get you any more than ok results, you can do what you want with technique but if your coffee was ground weeks (months?) ago then it will have lost much of it’s aroma and flavour, regardless of the brand of coffee. While a home espresso machine really needs a good amount spent on a burr grinder, a stovetop results will probably still be improved by a basic blade grinder for £20, or if you want even better results and don’t mind a bit of elbow grease I would highly recommend a hand grinder.

Over extraction is the second, many people (including me in the past!) just assume the more water goes through the stronger it will be, but as the coffee grinds get over used they get bitter. So a little less water in the stove top might help too.

Hello guys and gals. I’m a little late to the party, as usual, but here is a related matter. It’s not just coffee that needs to be fairly traded you know:

This was written by my girlfriend, based on research for her Masters, and when I get myself together I intend to write an article on a related matter.

Please take a few minutes to read, and if you have any feedback, well that’d be swell.

@Kuco

Completely unrelated to this thread, but I saw your comment on a thread about the Nukeproof Mega and sizing. What I wanted to know is whether you ended up getting one, and if so a small, and if so how you found it? Have been thinking of getting one for a while, tested a medium last year and then took too long to get one when they all got discounted. Am also 5’7″-5’8″, not especially long armed and wondering if I could get away with a small…!

Thanks.