So if we’ve finished “arguing with TJ” can we come back to this one which got forgotten?

Who do you think is going to win? Do you seriously think dog owners breaking the law are going to successfully ban cyclists (and runners and children) from all shared areas – which presumably includes BWs which is where I’ve been when bitten by a dog whilst cycling?

Shame the under crossbar bike pumps have gone out of fashion, instant extending big stick with the flick of a wrist.

I’ve had lots and lots of exposure to dogs on the loose back from my BT field engineer days, infringing on their territory could bring out a whole number of responses. I soon learned for example in a farm yard open and loudly slam the van door without getting out of the van as the farm dogs wouldn’t move till they heard a car door close.

Worst one that happened to me was walking up a driveway only for the dog of the house to spy me, come running down the hallway of the house and leap straight at me, but there was a plate glass window in the way, he went straight thru it ending up cutting up both of us. That was a lesson that taught me to leave my toe tector pole climbing boots for the whole working day rather than when I was working up a ladder/stick, as giving a mental blood covered Collie a good toeing would have been a great option at the time rather than the screaming get him off me that I did at the time.

Yes there’s different rules for if you are infringing on their turf, but outside of that in a public place there’s a duty of the owner to keep them completely under control, for example having a trail dog is fine and dandy and I’m more than happy with that, taking said trail dog for a lap of Llandegla on a busy weekend afternoon (seen if happen more than once) off lead isn’t an example of keeping them under control.

I may sound as if I’m a complete pet/dog hater, not the case, the missus (now ex) and I owned horses, cats and yes dogs and we made sure that they were controlled when in public/with guests (well not the cats but who can)

It’s not particularly absurd if it’s the only way he can be sure they’re not going to bite him. It appears the alternative is being forced to stop all the time whenever there is a loose dog, because owners can’t be trusted to keep their dogs under control and dogs can’t be trusted not to attack. Meanwhile “dogs will be dogs” is the sort of thing irresponsible dog owners say as an attempt at an excuse, but is actually a pretty good reason for them being kept on leads!

If we were to go by your train of thought then why not make all bikes for road use only where they cant bother pedestrians, horse riders etc?
But wait, lets ban bikes cause they inconvenience cars?

Your analogy would work if pedestrians, horse riders and cars were regularly attacked by cyclists.

Learning how to interact with things around you is far more important than trying to control everything around you which ultimately ends in failure.

More important than requiring those people with the dangerous things to control them? To throw your analogy back at you (I am enjoying the analogy of dangerous dogs with cars), presumably you think it more important that cyclists learn how to interact with cars than that cars should be forcibly regulated?

I would still like to know how my alleged nervous body language caused a dog to attack me from behind, when I didn’t know it was there.

Who do you think is going to win? Do you seriously think dog owners breaking the law are going to successfully ban cyclists (and runners and children) from all shared areas – which presumably includes BWs which is where I’ve been when bitten by a dog whilst cycling?

Do you want an answer to the original scenario or the one where you’ve just moved the goal posts? 😛

slowoldgit – Member

I would still like to know how my alleged nervous body language caused a dog to attack me from behind, when I didn’t know it was there.

Does your ass look like a steak?

Out of curiosity, what is so wrong about thinking that dogs should be kept on a lead in public places?

Idiots would just use those extending leads like the do already. I’ve never been bitten by a dog and never been chased or knocked off my bike by an off lead dog. I have been brought down by an extending lead mutt whilst riding as I didnt think the dog was going to dart out and lay a trip wire. I’ve also had a burn from some idiot dog owner letting my legs get wrapped up by a small yappy thing running round me left a scar for months.
Only a couple of weeks ago I was with my son walking my dog, off lead when a rottweiler on an extending lead tried to get at my dog on a narrow path. Ended up with me and my 6 year old wrapped up in the lead with an over excited very large powerful dog. Luckily both myself and junior werent too concerned but how the owner could let this situation arise is beyond me!

Oh and my dog is walked off lead, at least in part, because she’s nervous of large excitable dogs of which lots have owners who dont seem to care that their dogs run up to and barge around other dogs. Luckily mine is pretty much twice as fast as every other dog.

Who do you think is going to win? Do you seriously think dog owners breaking the law are going to successfully ban cyclists (and runners and children) from all shared areas – which presumably includes BWs which is where I’ve been when bitten by a dog whilst cycling?

I fear that dog owners are more likely to ‘win’ than bikers, that’s for sure, even if they are in the wrong. More people dislike bikers (a growing trend unfortunately, especially on the roads) than dog walkers. Obviously won’t happen for runners and children (I think that was a joke, can’t tell if you are serious or not :?).

Who do you think is going to win? Do you seriously think dog owners breaking the law are going to successfully ban cyclists (and runners and children) from all shared areas – which presumably includes BWs which is where I’ve been when bitten by a dog whilst cycling?

Do you want an answer to the original scenario or the one where you’ve just moved the goal posts?

Let try and answer both, then we have covered as much ground as possible :twisted:.

More important than requiring those people with the dangerous things to control them? To throw your analogy back at you (I am enjoying the analogy of dangerous dogs with cars), presumably you think it more important that cyclists learn how to interact with cars than that cars should be forcibly regulated?

It’s not necessarily ‘more important that cyclists learn how to interact with cars than that cars should be forcibly regulated’, but it clearly sensible to take some precautions on the road (that you shouldn’t otherwise have to). That’s because safe driving isn’t particularly well regulated/enforced. In the same way that good dog control isn’t. It would be pretty unwise to think every car on the road is well driven, to the letter of the law. Reckless even (sadly). You will be much safer assuming every car is being driven by an idiot. That’s the real world. Your ideal would be nice, but is never going to happen. To be clear, once again, I’m not saying it is the fault of the biker being bitten (or run over), only that if you can reduce the risk of it happening (because some people can’t control their dogs, or drive safely), why wouldn’t you?. That is something you can control. You have no hope of changing the way people control their dogs or driving their cars.

squirrelking – Member
and one on the other thread calling the OP a prick
Yes, because by that point he was acting like one.

Hi Dave; that was me. *waves*

I don’t think having a differing opinion constitutes “behaving like a prick” or warrants personal insults – not least because if it did that would encompass most of the threads on STW. It’s easy to hurl insults from behind your keyboard, and frankly it reduces the impact of anything you have to say.

As cyclists we will inevitably come into contact with dogs, some good, some bad, that is life. Even if you don;t like them realistically you will need to interact with them, slowing down and saying hello pretty much always works, however this year alone I have had to use my bike as a defensive shield three times and had a dog jump up at my back whilst running.

Some dogs and dog owners are a bit rubbish!

surely if you stop and make friends with a dog that runs up to you this is reinforcing the unwanted behaviour. You are rewarding the unwanted behaviour – the dog learns ” run up to a cyclist, get patted” and thus is more likely to do it whereas if you kick the dog the dog learns ” chase cyclist get hurt” and is less likely to do it?

Bagstards post above shows exactly why stopping / slowing down is bad advice – he still got attacked.

I love dogs.
They love me.
TJs point about them being on a lead when in a public place is, however, correct.
Lazy owners/poor breed selection.
Our descendants will look back at us in wonder. We’ve barely moved on from living in the same building as our cattle.

Saying they should all be on leads just for your selfish convenience is absurd.

saying that an animal’s rights trumps a human being’s is absurd.

Person A inconveniences person B and doesn’t give a toss about it – who’s the selfish one here?

surely if you stop and make friends with a dog that runs up to you this is reinforcing the unwanted behaviour. You are rewarding the unwanted behaviour – the dog learns ” run up to a cyclist, get patted” and thus is more likely to do it whereas if you kick the dog the dog learns ” chase cyclist get hurt” and is less likely to do it?

Actually you’ll be teaching the dog that cyclists mean violence and fear. Which doesn’t equate to less chance of someone being attacked.

If there was a way to prove it one way or the other, I’d put money on the OPs attack being with a dog that had been violently corrected. Not by the OP, but by the owner or another person unknown.

A dog is a dog! Is a dog! Is a dog! It’s not your baby nor are you it’s mommy or daddy!
A dog either thinks it’s a human or that you’re a dog, either way you need to ensure that the dog knows it’s at the bottom of pecking order of the family pack and this needs to be enforced constantly.

If you want to own one you should be responsible for it (as the law dictates). I’m shocked by how many dogs that are off the lead in public places that do not come back when called around where I live which if you go by the letter of the law are deemed ‘out of control’ and the owner could be at risk of being charged and prosecuted if the dog shows aggression.

I’ve had dogs in the past and I’m OK around dogs but I’ve still been chased by barking/snarling dogs when out on the bike who’ve tried to bite me but not succeeded. I’m a 5’11” adult but what if I was a small child? The dogs teeth would be face height as opposed to leg height.

Would a simple muzzle not help?
Or even designated areas for letting your dog off the lead?
Compulsory dog training classes?

Before I get flamed I would like to state that I like dogs and had them when I was younger but I don’t have the time to properly to look after one as I work full time.

Bagstards post above shows exactly why stopping / slowing down is bad advice – he still got attacked

No it doesn’t.

1/ his post gives me the impression he didn’t slow down or stop “had a dog jump up at my back whilst running”

2/ Having a dog run up to you is not ‘being attacked’ – I don’t disagree that it is unwanted behaviour, and may be distressing if you can’t deal with it / don’t like dogs, but it is not an ‘attack’.

To use your favourite ‘rape apologist’ analogy, it’s like being wolf whistled for wearing a miniskirt. Unwanted, we’d all prefer it if it didn’t happen but it’s not the same as being raped.

3/ Don’t reward a dog for running up to you then. Ignore it, turn away, tell it ‘Off!’ firmly. Rightly or wrongly, running away, shouting, kicking out at it, all could be seen by the dog as either threatening it or joining in with the game.

Yeah yeah, there I go victim blaming again. The blame lies with owners for not controlling their dogs; but how we respond to those that don’t mitigates the consequences.

3/ Don’t reward a dog for running up to you then. Ignore it, turn away, tell it ‘Off!’ firmly. Rightly or wrongly, running away, shouting, kicking out at it, all could be seen by the dog as either threatening it or joining in with the game.

fair enough – I was asking a question.

Others on here have given different advice that one should stop and hold out a hand to the dog and be friendly towards it which to me is teaching the dog that running up to people gets you patted.

The “hold your hand out” thing is to let them sniff you I presumed, rather than to give it a cuddle.

FTFY

Just for clarity, the most recent issue was a very large German shepherd, two incidents with the same dog. I was riding a local wood and going quite fast, at the last moment I realised there were dogs on a parallel trail, I realised I had spooked the dogs, so slowed to a halt, put my bike in frnt of me and waited for the owner to take control. I put this one down to me as I startled the dog, I wasn’t attacked, but I was glad to have my bike to jump behind.

The second incident was with the same dog, i was riding slowly and aware of it fifty yards ahead and decided to stop and let them get ahead. The dog charged at me barking and growling and was clearly trying to get to me through my bike. It is the biggest GSD I have seen in my life and I will admit I was scared( for context I am used to large breeds like Rotties and mastiffs, currently have an eight stone mastiff cross). Eventually the owner took of her headphones, mumbled an apology and scuttled of dragging her dog.

The very next day I was out running, stopped as I passed a collie, spoke to the owner, walked on a bit to give a gap, three hundred yards later the dog jumps up at my back. I wasn’t attacked as such, but I’m quite a big guy, a child would have been knocked on their face.

As I said, some dogs and owners are crap.

Others on here have given different advice that one should stop and hold out a hand to the dog and be friendly towards it which to me is teaching the dog that running up to people gets you patted.

which 99x out of 100 (made up stats, don’t flame me) is fine particularly if like me you like dogs, but i do accept what you say that it reinforces ‘bad’ behaviour. (I’ve “ed bad in that sentence too, because to a dog lover, and with a friendly but inquisitive dog, I wouldn’t necessarily consider it bad but accept completely that that is purely in the eye of the beholder and to someone who doesn’t like dogs it would be different) And maybe I’ll actually start to ignore other dogs too, because I can see how I’m in a small way contributing to that.

My dog can’t help herself sometimes. Not with strangers, she is wary of people she doesn’t know but with friends she bounds over and ‘demands’ attention. Which she usually gets. When i come in from work, I control this by doing the ignore thing, and she knows to retreat to her basket and stay in there until i say but she is actually vibrating with excitement, she’s so pleased to see you. But i will rethink greeting friends as well and get them to do the ignore thing. And no matter who she goes up to, one thing I’m proud of is she will recall in an instant (not because I’m the dog whisperer, mind, because she knows she’ll be rewarded and being part spaniel if it involves eating that trumps everything 😉 )

tj, I agree with you in principal reagrding rewarding bad behaviour, but if you are making the first move you cancel that out.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

Personally, I wouldn’t put my hand out. If you don’t want to interact you want to be as boring as possible (I find this very easy).

With a friendly dog you’ll be less interesting.

With an aggressive dog you’ll be harder to bite and literally less in their face.

The “hold your hand out” thing is to let them sniff you I presumed, rather than to give it a cuddle.

Yes, (Most) dogs are inquisitive and as is broadly known have a much better sense of smell than memory for faces, etc.

So while advice is to pointedly ignore the dog if you don’t want attention, if you are happy to offer attention (and notwithstanding the very true comments by TJ covered in my last message that someone giving attention because they’re Ok with that may be perpetuating a problem for others that don’t) next step once they are under control, and you’ve OK’ed with the owner it’s OK, is to put a bunched hand out, back of hand to the dog, and let them check you out. That way fingers are not pushed into a dog’s face which it might not like. And then lastly, a tickle under the chin – some dogs don’t like having a hand put on / over their head.

But that’s all FYI – if you don’t like dogs and want them to leave you alone, pointedly ignore them, use ‘Off!’ command, and (hopefully) both the dog and the owner will get your message.

Ta chaps – nice get this back from the emotive.

fair enough – I was asking a question.

You have a very strange way of asking questions. They only seem to become ‘questions’ when someones shows how your ‘statement’ might be wrong.

This one cracked me up:

anagallis_arvensis – Member
Oh and my dog is walked off lead, at least in part, because she’s nervous of large excitable dogs of which lots have owners who dont seem to care that their dogs run up to and barge around other dogs. Luckily mine is pretty much twice as fast as every other dog.

Self centred attitude on display front and centre – “its the other dogs fault, not mine”. Where does your dog go once its been spooked? In what way are you in control of it? Clearly your dog doesn’t know how to behave around dogs, maybe it needs training?

Any and all dogs can be ‘aggressive’. They naturally invade personal space and think nothing of it. If a person was to behave in the way a dog does they would not be popular. Dog owners typically seem to be incapable of understanding this about their little darlings.

Round our way the amount of shit you encounter along bridleways and tracks is disgusting and argument enough in itself to place more controls on dog ownership, never mind the inconsiderate behaviour on display from time to time.

The long and short of it is there are too many dogs, and too many of those are owned by inconsiderate people who do not control their animals properly.

So can I check again, do you seriously think dog owners would succeed in getting cyclists banned from BWs because they are getting bitten by dogs? 😯 Fortunately these things aren’t down to whether cyclists are popular or not (though I think you’ll find out of control dogs are less popular than you think).

Obviously won’t happen for runners and children (I think that was a joke, can’t tell if you are serious or not :?).

No joke – those are the other groups being attacked by dogs which have been mentioned as part of the discussion. I’m assuming if dog owners would want to ban cyclists so they could avoid the bother of having to control their dogs they’d similarly want to ban the other groups which upset them.

Though I’m not quite sure whether your whole premise of dog owners successfully lobbying for the banning of other groups in order that they don’t have to control their dogs is a joke.

Can we organise a dog cull? Perhaps using badgers – turn the tables on those nasty, selfish dog owners.

Great thread though. To develope two simple ideas….

1. owners are responsible for the behaviour of their dogs at all times (and by extension controlling them)
2. In a non-perfect world, it makes sense to understand how to mitigate the risks of when some owners are incapable of doing this

…Into such an argument!!

AA, I sympathise with you. All that abuse for simple making the same points. Incredible until you look at….

OP, hope your wound has healed.

So can I check again, do you seriously think dog owners would succeed in getting cyclists banned from BWs because they are getting bitten by dogs?

I don’t think he’s suggesting either side would win in the sense of an absolute ban. But of the two sides cyclists will probably come out the worse. Probably something along the lines of localised changes to access. None of it’s remotely likely.

In scotland we have right to roam enshrined in law – and included in that its the dog owners responsibility to keep their dog under control at all times and under close control around livestock. So in Scotland it would certainly be the dog walkers who would lose out as the cyclists, runners and walkers are clearly acting within the law and the dog owners not.

In scotland we have right to roam enshrined in law

Local Scottish cyclists Facebook page not too long ago had the councillor posting for cyclists not to use the beach promenade.

Dogs are fine apparently.

To be fair, I think the main issue was the speed cyclists move at as well as the promenade being narrow.

Through work we hold an event at a well known walking trail. There’s only one group that gets complained about and it’s not dog walkers.

It’s “idiot cyclists zooming past”. Nobody mentions all the dog shit which is present in abundance.

There’s another event that takes place in Edinburgh which also illicit s numerous complaints from participants. Again the issue is “idiot cyclists zooming past”

I’d not be so confident of cyclists coming out well tbh.

I don’t think he’s suggesting either side would win in the sense of an absolute ban. But of the two sides cyclists will probably come out the worse. Probably something along the lines of localised changes to access. None of it’s remotely likely.

Yes, pretty much this.

Porty prom? Its been in dispute for decades

Other side of the river TJ.

Pretty sure I can see your flat from the living room.

It’s a daft spot for riding at anything above walking pace as it’s so narrow.

You probably can piemonster as I can see ( from the rooftop) allmost all of the fife shore.

Ta chaps – nice get this back from the emotive.

Oh, the ironing