Matey is getting divorced after about 20 years. Two kids under 20. He worked and bought the house while she looked after the kids.

Any idea what sort of claim she has on his future earnings/pension?

It will vary a lot depending on the age of the kids, his earnings, his spouses earnings and the conditions of the divorce.

Anecdotal, but lots of it.

Enough to keep her in the manner to which she’s been accustomed I think it is.

There is a calculator thing for it somewhere on the web. Can’t remember where, but shouldn’t be too hard to find.
I personally used the “talking method”. Obviously not always viable.

Enough to keep her in the manner to which she’s been accustomed I think it is.

Which is why I keep MrsS in the shed.

Enough to keep her in the manner to which she’s been accustomed I think it is.

Riiiiight

Presumably it’s possible to come to some sort of agreement/settlement whereby he pays her off as it were or am I being naive?

Yup. where kids are involved it seems to be all in the mothers favour. Seen friend of a friend do this, she kept coming back for more and more until he had nothing, despite her living in excess of what he had, poor sod topped himself not long after. 🙁

poper snake with tits she was.

You need to separate spouse from kids as there are different rules for both.

Whatever he does, don’t agree to anything for ‘an easy life’ plus the rules that apply to kids are NOT to be ignored – not ignored that is unless he works in a cash-based job.

I was reading up on this recently. Seems to be the beginnings of a trend in settlements that once the kids are old enough to not need funding, ex wives/ex husband’s are expected to work rather than continue to be supported.

Think it has always been possible to get a final settlement to stop future claims, but not always been done properly by solicitors. A mate lost out on a generous redundancy package as it turned out his ex would get a big chunk due to some **** wit of a solicitor.

Well it is at least 50/50 but then add in maintenance for the kids and also the wife depending on her earning potential.

Look at

http://www.wikivorce.com/divorce/

for advice and forums and telephone support.

They are a charity and the government sites will point you to there.

They offer some services that use different family solicitors, half the money you pay goes to wikivorce and half to the solicitors.

They do a financial consultation service which I think is £400 (depending on complication) where you fill in a questionaire with all your details and assets, etc, you get one phone call consultation with the solicitor, and then the solicitor provides written advice on what a fair split looks like.

[A problem comes with the pensions as it may need an actuary to sort out properly.]

He can then use this advice in his financial settlement that will form the basis for his decree absolute, and then the judge might be more likely to accept it.

They also offer solicitor services to do the divorce as well, although he could actually do that himself to save money.

The key thing here is the avoidance of actually seeing a solicitor, particularly for the wife, as he will try to turn it into a fight for money and you will end up paying a lot to the solicitor instead, when it would be better to accept a less fair arrangement and let the wife have the money to look after the kids instead.

Using an online service like this has the advantage of doing that – your mate should make sure that that everything is fuly transparent between him and the solicitors so his wife knows that he is not trying to stitch her up.

If the split does not have unreasonable behaviour or adultery reasons and he has to do the 2 year split then it is worse as the 50/50 split (or more) might be applied on what the combined assets are AFTER the 2 year separation, so all his pension contributions whilst split will be shared with the wife for example – which makes no sense to me at all and is quite a depresing thought. So he won’t know what his final financial position will be, and so will be in limbo about committing to property, etc until then.

Therefore they should plump for adultery or unreasonable behaviour whatever – it doesn’t matter who admits to what as it won’t make any difference to the settlement nor will it be made public.

If they are argueing massively then they may need to go to a mediator but my advice is to go for the financial consultation as a first step, with full transparency, and then accept what the advice is on both sides.

Then do an online service for the divorce to keep that at arms length.

That might cost £1k in fees, but in terms of the overall cost that will be negligable.

Your mate should ‘suck up’ any anger and try to be reasonable as this is the most likely route to keeping costs down.

I have just sold my house and bought another and the difference is going to the wife as part of the settlement. A friend on FB said that his solicitors fees nearly came to that amount because the wife went to a solicitor and it went nuclear after that.

Blimey

So even though the kids are 19 & 17 there’s still maintenance?

One of my anecdotes is a chap who has to give half of his (currently) 6 figure income to his alcoholic ex wife, for the rest of his or her life. He has had full custody of their 4 kids, who are now grown up, and paid for their upbringing, but she’s still literally pissing his money away.

it’s called spousal maintenance, there is no formula, any claim has to go through court, unless you can resolve in mediation.
It’s not an automatic entitlement, but a mechanism to protect former spouses from hardship/poverty. Precedent has been set in similar cases – do some googling. But she will have to make some effort to support herself.
I think also spousal maintenance does not take into account new partners earnings, which is where it gets really shitty.

Above just based on my own research, as I have this hanging over me currently due to kids approaching age where maintenance will no longer be paid, so she’s thinking of her future income.

Unless clean break order is obtained, which prevents future financial claims (I think!)

Ah yes, shoulda read it properly “how much maintenance” is a different question to “what sort of claim she has on his future earnings/pension”

Pretty complicated if they can’t work these things out between them.

Try and go for an amicable clean break. Done this with my ex, now sorted, and my partner is doing the same with hers.

There is a formula for kids maintenance, but spousal maintenance is less clear. You can agree a clean break where the partner earning less/nothing gets more capital/property so that she/he can downsize when kids have moved on/can pay rent, and release money to cover the ending of spousal maintenance.

One important thing is to stop thinking of what he paid for – he could only earn and buy the house because she was doing the childcare. All the money he earnt and property he bought is absolutely rightly half hers, they were a team dividing tasks. The sooner you get past any of this “its my money” rubbish, the sooner you move on.

also his pension will be taken into account, lots of top earners have found to their surprise

Reading this thread has got me thinking about the Joint/Separate accounts thread from last week.
and in particular this comment from above: “Enough to keep her in the manner to which she’s been accustomed”

Now if the couple had separate accounts for personal income and a proportion gets transferred into a joint account for household costs (bills, kids etc) Would the above still count?
As the lifestyle would have been funded through their own means but the household costs were shared.

I hope I never get into any situation like this, it seems it can be a horrible minefield

How much does it cost to have a patio laid?

Isn’t “Enough to keep her in the manner to which she’s been accustomed” a bit of a myth?
I dont think spousal maintenance is about achieving parity in standard of living, but protecting the lesser earning spouse from hardship.

it can be a horrible minefield

it very much looks that way

One important thing is to stop thinking of what he paid for

A big hurdle to overcome when the reality is a nice house that he was buying before he met her and her contribution towards bringing up the kids was collecting them from nursery/school in the cars he bought. Nightmare

and her contribution towards bringing up the kids was collecting them from nursery/school in the cars he bought. Nightmare

Really, thats all she did? she didn’t give berth or anything and for 19 years your mate has activley been trying to get her to do more with the kids or get a job?

She had to forgo her ability to earn and to accumulate pension in order to do the stuff that allowed him to earn – things like childcare, housework etc. I think you will find if he had to buy in all these services it would have cost him a lot more.

The courts recognise that not all contributions to a families wealth comes from one earner. She must be compensated for the loss of earnings and pension she has had

so yes – your friend will have to pay for her at least until she gets back on her feet and quite possibly for the rest of their lives.

rocketman that may be true, or it may be his perception of things, and if they were only together a few years then what he owned before marriage might be taken into account – but if he has been with her nearly 20 years… Arguing she hasn’t been pulling her weight only after they split is a bit late…

IANAL and I thnk he may need one, but he really needs to think how far he wants to push that. Working on an equitable clean break , espescially if family circumstances would allow her to go and get a job may be his best way out of this permanently.

More than he thinks 🙁

My ex-wife was entitled to maintainence even though our youngest was 21 and she had a settlement to include a property owned outright, cash in the bank and more than half of the pension.

EDIt: my ex made it a career of avoiding going back to work, court doesn’t care – we live in the about the most woman friendly place in the world for divorce

The whole “manner in which she is accustomed” gubbins is a myth. Two households are more expensive to run than one so it just isn’t achievable. Nor is being a stay at home lone parent.

After 20 years, it’ll be 50/50 as a starting point including pensions (based on current values). Assets can be traded (pension for house is a common one). She may need some support to get on her feet, but she’d be expected to find a job. Spousal maintenance is generally disliked by the courts but sometimes necessary to make the transition – clean breaks are much better all round. If there is an order for spousal maintenance, it can be varied at any time until it ceases.

If solicitors can be kept out of it, that is usually best all round but it requires a reasonable and open approach from both parties. Solicitors should only be used if it is a difficult split or if you jointly use one to draft agreed documents.

I dont think spousal maintenance is about achieving parity in standard of living, but protecting the lesser earning spouse from hardship.

we live in the about the most woman friendly place in the world for divorce

I was wondering about this. Is it as cut and dried as the bloke paying maintenance, or would roles be reversed if the woman was the higher earner in the relationship?

Come to that, how does it apply to same-sex divorces?

she didn’t give berth

Well, there are two children by all accounts – so I imagine at least a couple of times…

I suspect a lot of the “I have a mate who … ” stories are wildly exaggerared, due to bitterness on the part of the original narrator.

When it comes to spousal maintenance courts will not let manifestly unfair deals be approved.

Generally spousal maintenance is for a maximum of 5 years.

Edit to add: child maintenance is generally 20% of take home pay for 1st child and 5% for each further child. Spousal maintenance is by arrangement usually for 5 years max and delends on the capital split.
This was my experience 8 years ago.

Cougar yes if the wife is the one with the better job and/or money the hubby makes out however in practice this is rare and even rarer that he has “given up” his career to look after the kids.

OP to follow up on @grumpy’s point once the kids are older the court will want a clean break ie lump sum payment also the wife will be expected to work (maximise her income). In my ex-wife’s case this meant working 4 days a week in her friends shop (day = 9 to 5 with a lunch break) and never at weekends. “Maximise” my @rse !

Parity of living ! I can share more than a few stories of men who have had to live in a 1 bedroomed flat with a 100% mortgage (or just rent it) whilst wife gets the 3/4 bedroomed house as kids live with her, maybe a mortgae on that too which he is responsible for.

EDIt: my ex made it a career of avoiding going back to work, court doesn’t care – we live in the about the most woman friendly place in the world for divorce

Basically its down to how vindictive she’s feeling. For what is about to happen, heed the warnings of this man

Are you ready to be…..

Parity of living ! I can share more than a few stories of men who have had to live in a 1 bedroomed flat with a 100% mortgage (or just rent it) whilst wife gets the 3/4 bedroomed house as kids live with her, maybe a mortgae on that too which he is responsible for

that’s how it is except he’s gone back to live with his parents because he can’t afford the rent on the flat and somehow she lives in the nice detached house he bought 😕

Another q on this topic if I may

His parents are quite well off and quite old how where does he stand in terms of wills and inheritance?

Rocket yes I know one like that too, been living back at his parents for 3 years

AFAIK Inheritance/Wills are generally ignored as wills can be changed at any time. I recall there was some discussion in my divorce but unless the inheritance is imminent or it’s already in a beneficiary trust he should be ok.

r4oicketman – not that “he” bought but that “they” bought. without her efforts he would not have been able to earn as much

Ok many thanks

His parents are quite well off and quite old how where does he stand in terms of wills and inheritance?

In that case, he should go for a quick divorce. That potential inheritance will not be take into account, as it would depend upon the will being in his favour.

A female friend’s husband screwed around for many years and was unwilling to collaborate in the run-up to a divorce, delaying it for years. (He claimed it was against his religion). Once he learned that he was to be the beneficiary of a sizable will, he divorced damn quick.

So what happens in the situation where both parents worked? You just pay child maintenance to the on going primary carer??

r4oicketman – not that “he” bought but that “they” bought. without her efforts he would not have been able to earn as much

that’s not a completely fair argument though – if it wasn’t for the effort he put in through his education and career building before he meet his wife, he wouldn’t have been able to earn enough to buy the house.

He didn’t suddenly become a higher earner because he met his wife, and his earning potential might actually have been depressed because he now has to put in less hours, etc.

And if she was a low earner before, she has effectively become a high earner by marrying one.

And maybe if she hadn’t settled for him she could have married someone really rich 🙄