DrJ I get your point but with all due respect have you got any experience of this? I was fortunate/unfortunate to witness tough love in its extreme as an acquaintice of mine from Newcastle (a less than pleasant individual who could best be described as cruel but fair) let his 19 year old son get battered in a pub in Heaton in front of him (his son expected him to step in and save his arse) my acquaintice stopped two bouncers stepping in – when it finished he picked him up put him in a cab and took him to A & E and all he said to him was don’t pick fights and expect me to finish them. Ten years on he is a canny lad. Not promoting or condoning what he did

DIfficult but plenty of us were arseholes at that age and she has some growing up to do

Personally I would stop letting her take the piss out of you and set some firm boundaries about what you will and what you wont do for her- I dont like tough love and i think part of the issue is that some parents are too strict and make their love conditional on doing what they say and controlling their kid but you do need boundaries.

THM makes very good points about hating the behaviour not her and letting her know your love her unconditionally but your not there to help her be an arsehole – might want to work it better.

CHin up you will look back on this and laugh about it and when holding your grandkids remind her what she did to you

best of luck

Tom_W1987 – Member
You’re a complete idiot sometimes Chewy – but not many would post an actual apology. Tons one of the people on here, who deserves one.

What do you mean “but not many would post an actual apology.”?

Did I do something wrong by apologising?

(btw is the term “idiot” offensive or not in the UK? Can I use that in a normal language without people getting offended? Seriously, this is NOT a wind up)

No he’s saying you did the right thing

Which you did

Crikey, I’m sorry to read this ton.

FWIW, I’m stepfather to twin boys, aged eighteen. One is great, he and I are very close and he’s a genuine pleasure to be around, he’s helpful, communicative and has a fantastic attitude towards helping out around the house and never has to be asked twice. His brother however, was difficult from day one, argumentative, aggressive, bullying and openly defiant. He used to goad me and try to get his mother to intervene when I became angry at him and revoked his Playstation access and suchlike. The minute I learned to not respond to his provocation, he became utterly bereft and would simply ignore me. Since then he would outright refuse to lift a finger in the home and would be completely vile. He refused to attend the counselling we arranged or acknowledge the existence of any problem at all. Matters came to a head last year, I gave a final ultimatum – improve his attitude or pack his bags and leave, immediately. He opted for the latter and moved in with his father. To be brutally honest, the day he moved out, all the tension and negativity in the house went with him. I love him to bits, but I don’t miss having him under our roof one little bit.

It doesn’t end there – he has since enrolled onto an engineering course and won himself a scholarship. He’s very self disciplined and looks after himself. He’s not been in any trouble with the Police and doesn’t indulge in any self-destructive behavior, plus working with engineers has knocked off some of the edges and has instilled a commendable work ethic. I guess he’s on a far better path than I’d feared. Our relationship is much better these days too, I occasionally take him out riding and loan him a bike, which he’ll voluntarily clean after use.

In short, parenting is difficult. You can apply the same rules, the same rewards and the same amount of love to two siblings, but they can respond in wholly different ways.

Hang in there, try not to let it come between you and Mrs Ton, be consistent with the rules and never, ever stop expressing admiration and gratitude when your daughter does something positive, however hard you have to grit your teeth when saying it.

nonk – Member
No he’s saying you did the right thing

Which you did
Thanks for the clarification.

Chewkw – ‘Idiot’ can be offensive or affectionate, depending on the context. I wouldn’t go calling your colleagues idiots routinely (it probably wouldn’t be the wisest career move), but you could call your best mate an idiot for doing something daft with a smile on your face and it not be offensive at all.

It’s a multi purpose insult. A bit like ‘nob’. 😆

Idiots not that bad, with you – it’s more of a term of endearment.

Anyway, this thread makes me more optimistic about humanity. Hope all goes well Ton and don’t worry yourself too much Chewkw.

We all like bikes at the end of the day.

What about taking her away. Just the two of you for a trip – somewhere she would like to go.
Try break down some barriers.

It must be hard. Having 2 young kids, this is also one of my biggest fears for the future.

Slight hijack …

v8ninety – Member

Chewkw – ‘Idiot’ can be offensive or affectionate, depending on the context. I wouldn’t go calling your colleagues idiots routinely (it probably wouldn’t be the wisest career move), but you could call your best mate an idiot for doing something daft with a smile on your face and it not be offensive at all.

It’s a multi purpose insult. A bit like ‘nob’.

For whatever reasons one of my colleague likes to use the term “idiot” to describe someone in front of someone else. When he started using the term like that we sometimes we get nasty look but sometimes embarrassing ones sometimes laughter hence I asked.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Idiots not that bad, with you – it’s more of a term of endearment.

Anyway, this thread makes me more optimistic about humanity. Hope all goes well Ton and don’t worry yourself too much Chewkw.

We all like bikes at the end of the day.

No, no I am not offended in anyway or form. In fact I would like to use that word yet don’t know if others would take offense.

In the far east we don’t use the term “idiot” as we tend to associate it with swear word instead we use the term “foolish”.

If you call someone idiot in the far east you might get into all sort of mess and I don’t mean a mess like being slapped but bodily harm.

Another term is “nutter” … an English girl I know used that often but when I tried to use it in the office, my colleague laughed but told me not to use that description … apparently is rude!

You need to show compassion, she is feeling isolated and unwanted. Sounds like you punished her harshly for leaving the army when she needed support while she worked out what to do next.

Also is is not unusual for parents to have “subsidise” their children well into their 20s, it very tough for young adults right now

Ton – I think I may be in the minority here in that I’ve actually met the lady in question – albeit some years ago and very briefly as you got your bike ready for a ride. Nothing stood out to me then but no reason that it would.
I don’t think I have any answers, so I thought I’d try a question and see if that triggers anything with you and that is did you not go through a rough patch (maybe not as rough) with your son about the same age, and from the way you describe it now is that now in the past? Could this be someone in the last throws of childhood saying I’m an adult and I can do what I like?
Like I said no answers, but you have my sympathy and also slight fear that in 10 years or so I’ll be writing the same post you did.
Good luck.

I would be concerned about the use of drugs. Probably legal highs. The boyfriend and other partying friends and putting her up. Time to intervene and ask her to come home. If that doesn’t work, force her too by whatever means possible.

The way I look at this is that I brought my kids into this world and sometimes they find it a hard world to deal with. I’m a bit more experienced in this world then they are and it is my job to help them. I can’t ever resign from that job no matter how much I want to. Sometimes they push you away to get you to come back. I personally cannot agree at all with the “leave them to it” sentiments. I think you persist and persist which demonstrates even though everyone else has given up on them, you haven’t.

DavidB nails it. I have looked at this thread a couple of times (I have an 18 yo son and 20 yo daughter) with a view to posting and decided each time not to, until now.

Both of my children can be challenging but I would never use the language “chin her”.. “knocked her senseless” etc, take from that what you will

Its always hard being a parent. Ask my 90 year old Mum.
However there is some sound advice from people above. My experience in this area of work shows several things:
You need to be CONSISTENT in your responses (whatever they may be) and others around need to back those up. Often other friends or family will not hold the line so you need to spend time explaining and updating them on the situation. That is hard because you can feel like its all your own fault.
You can’t change their behaviour – only they can do that – so you have to create an environment and set of responses that they know are safe. Something like never giving them money but always getting them to a job interview.
Don’t lecture them because if they have had a basically sound upbringing, (which I suspect they have had) they will know they are not behaving well. The don’t shout advice is very sound.
Be prepared for the long haul. Sorry to say its going to be years by the sound of it so ensure your support structures are good. If you are in a mess you will portray it and they will reject your example as a way forward.
Don’t exclude them from the good bits (Sunday lunch, birthday celebrations etc) but have boundaries and safety considerations built in. Let them have as much pudding as they like and lock up your valuables.
Hang on to the good bits from the past and don’t compare to your other kids. Think how you hated it!
Never be afraid to ask and get somebody external (not family) to help you reflect. Its easier to see the themes from a dispassionate distance. Thats not meaning professional input necessarily but someone who is analytical and honest.
Good luck.

DrJ I get your point but with all due respect have you got any experience of this?

As in the previous post I made, I am going through a similar – but less extreme – situation myself. I don’t pretend to have any answers, but I do know that, as DavidB eloquently says, I can’t resign from my job, and I don’t think I have it in me to watch her slide down as far as it might take.

You need to be CONSISTENT in your responses (whatever they may be) and others around need to back those up.

Others won’t back you up, they’ll have their own way of dealing with it and you can’t force or negotiate a personality change – it’ll just lead to conflict with with your wife or whoever. Divided we fell, so we’ve picked ourselves up and are standing as different people with different approaches. Inconsistent too and things have been more peaceful since. Sometimes I’ll persist and sometimes leave the house for a few days and return when I’ve stocked up with tolerance and determination.

I’ve given up on notions of pride, self esteem, respect or even self-respect, and just try to contribute positively. Then when it all gets demoralising or there’s more negative than positive I have another break.

So persist, Ton and all the others, do what you can to help and I’ll persist too.

Others won’t back you up, they’ll have their own way of dealing with it and you can’t force or negotiate a personality change – it’ll just lead to conflict with with your wife or whoever

This is my experience, to date. More or less broke us up.

14 to 18 I wasn’t a “nice” person. Bitter, resentful and quite self-centred. Stole, lied and cheated. 18 onwards, despite being a bit of a piss head I wan’t too bad. I like to think that from 21 onwards I’ve been an OK person.

I’m now going through the situation where my 17 y/o daughter is suffering some mental health issues. She’s seen CAMHS and we are trying to get her there again. She will talk to my wife / her mum but only on her terms. She won’t talk to me about personal issues at all so to all intents and purposes I spend a lot of time metaphorically outside looking in. We used to be very close so it makes it all the more heartbreaking. I *think* she loves me as her dad but not sure that she particularly like me. All I can do is be there, unconditionally, and wait.

However on the side of the children in this conversation, the world is not a nice place. They are told work hard through school, 6th form and maybe even Uni and the world is your oyster.Then they hit reality and find out that actually it’s pretty shit. Low paid 0 hour contracts abound. Your chance of ever actually buying a home decrease almost daily. The government are seemingly on a race to the bottom in terms of ordinary working people’s lives. All the while the media is full of the obscene opulent displays of popular oxygen theives the Kardashians and the latest web sensation “London Rich Kids”. No wonder some get pissed off.

#edit

The way I look at this is that I brought my kids into this world and sometimes they find it a hard world to deal with. I’m a bit more experienced in this world then they are and it is my job to help them. I can’t ever resign from that job no matter how much I want to. Sometimes they push you away to get you to come back. I personally cannot agree at all with the “leave them to it” sentiments. I think you persist and persist which demonstrates even though everyone else has given up on them, you haven’t.

Excellent advice.

DrJ – Member 
@thm – you mention professional help – can you elucidate a bit more on what you mean? I am in a similar – but less serious -position, and the problem is that of course my daughter does not want to get help with the issues that lead her to behave in this way, and I’m not sure what resources exist to help me to interact with her.

Sorry Doc, missed this yesterday – sympathies to you too. My A&U were quite guarded about the whole issue (not a great idea IMO) so I am hazy in the detail. Started with eating disorders which were treated with medical help but then went into downward spiral with more severe mental issues which need specialist treatment. This was despite much love and support. At its most extreme, my A&U were advised to make a complete separation from their daughter which even involved moving to the other end of the country. Truly desperate. The rest of the family were asked to refrain from contacting our niece/cousing as they new she would seek our help which would end up in stealing and possible abuse to us. Really awful because as predicted my cousin did contact me and my brother and our natural reaction is to want to help. I was avoided commenting on this because there has been no happy ending. Things have got better and my cousin has now moved back closer to my A&U and they have regular contact. This has been important following the loss of their son. Things are better but far from perfect. It’s a terrible situation.

Sorry ton, if this experience is hard to read, there are happier endings, much happier ones. Good luck to you both.

Following on from Coyote comments, I read an interesting article on the issues facing the current young generation. The older living generations have been lucky. Our expectations were much lower at school, Uni and starting work as was the pressure (nine of the anything less than an A is a fail crap). However, for many, the outcome has been much better than expected. The economy largely prospered, living standards rose (helped by the debt mirage) and outcomes largely exceeded expectations.

The young generation, in contrast, have been conditioned that the world is their oyster. They are perfect, they can achieve what they want and should aim corresponding high. They are sheltered from criticism and from failure (ok loads of sweeping generalisations here I admit) and go out into the world with absurdly high expectations re outcomes. This will be the generation were outcomes will probably be lower than expectation – in complete contrast to the experience of their parents – and this will be tough to deal with. Mental issues are a symptom of this and an very ugly one at that.

On that happy note, better do some work….

OP sorry to hear about this siuation. To be honest from what I’ve read here she is just lost, I’d imagine the boyfriend she’s chosen won’t be helping either. Its a tough situation (one I am glad we never had to fave with our three). She needs something to anchor herself to, a hobby if not a job. Right now she is drifting and downwards. As @oldman says its time to ween her off of money and your support. Definitely don’t wash her clothes, I am against cutting the phone off as thats a safety issue for a young woman but she needs to start supporting herself. Does your wife have the ability to talk to her, one or both of you need to communicate with her. She may have been gutted rhe army didn’t work our, maybe that was her dream ?

Don’t give up on her, she’s being a PITA but I’ve known worse (friends two daughters in care after series of robberies and drug abuse) and she may not be that far from turning a corner

They are sheltered from criticism and from failure (ok loads of sweeping generalisations here I admit) and go out into the world with absurdly high expectations re outcomes. This will be the generation were outcomes will probably be lower than expectation – in complete contrast to the experience of their parents – and this will be tough to deal with. Mental issues are a symptom of this and an very ugly one at that.

I call horseshit on this, the amount of ageing doctors that I know who got a B and a few C’s at O-levels beggars belief.

Youngsters these days are ruthlessly competitive, expectations for your generation were low because competition was low. When competition is low, wages skyrocket and living costs are good. When competition is high, well, we get what we have now, everyone fighting for a smaller and smaller slice of the pie.

I don’t have any experience of this to comment but Olly2097 seems to have it right as i see it. Be tough, yes, because she’s being an arse but also maybe she needs to feel loved so understand what her beef is and help channel it. She’s surely just finding her way and needs some support in doing so, albeit doesn’t mean being a sook and laying on an easy life. Good luck.

We are agreeing then Tom. Doctors got on despie poor O levels. We had an easier ride and outcomes > expectations. Our parents came out of rationing- era so there were lower parental expectations from them too. Today IMO expectations > future outcomes and this is not helped by the modern mindset that anyone can achieve anything they want – the X Factor dream. It’s baloney and only increases the risk of mental health issues – again IMO.

I am relieved that both my kids have had 4 year degree courses after the school exam treadmill. Gave them some relief before the internship/ job application nightmare begins or began!

Kids/young adults have too little time to relax IMO. I feel it now with comments to mini THM about what he is doing work wise in the holidays. In my day we did a bit of casual work to fund inter-railing or climbing in the Alps. Summers were not about preparing the perfect CV!!!

I call horseshit on this, the amount of ageing doctors that I know who got a B and a few C’s at O-levels beggars belief.

I think that’s kind of the point. In my age group (late 40s) ‘O’ level grade A was rare. C was a pass and perfectly acceptable. The pressure to score straight ‘A’s is immense! We were told that Cs will open doors, it was acceptable to go from school at 15 / 16 straight into work. Uni was for the real high achievers. I agree with THM that children now are under much more pressure to achieve which unlimately can lead to severe disillusionment and subsequesnt mental problems. Tom W however does make a good point.

#edit

In my day we did a bit of casual work to fund inter-railing or climbing in the Alps. Summers were not about preparing the perfect CV!!!

My daughter spent ages preparing a CV to submit for casual work at local garden centres, etc. She now has a part time job (4 hours a week – yeah right) at Matalan and the way they treat staff and mess them around is unreal.

A B and a few C’s wasn’t bad back then. Kids may be a tad brighter these days thanks to “stimuli” but that doesn’t account for the numbers of As being handed out. Nor the objective of 50% of the population getting a university or equivalent education being close. It’s just qualification devaluation and the corresponding expectations need to be devalued too. Today’s kids just have to spend longer in the education system to get a job they were competent to do at 18.

The way the government has raised standards in terms of numbers getting good results is to lower the standards needed to get good results.

I think it’s tempting to reach that conclusion Edukator – but having read the dissertations and essays of my son and his girlfriend for interest it’s easily falsifiable. Their level of work is way beyond anything that my wife and I and peers achieved – way beyond – the standards are higher as it the achievement levels. FFS, they are reading Kant in 1y A level theology these days!!!

FFS, they are reading Kant

Very rarely stable, as I recall

When competition is low, wages skyrocket and living costs are good. When competition is high, well, we get what we have now, everyone fighting for a smaller and smaller slice of the pie.

I completely agree with this. It’s a thoroughly crappy time to be growing up, expectations are high, education = debt, housing is expensive and competition is fierce. It’s not surprising that many people simply give up in the absence of an alternative.

How much is reworded copy-paste, THM?

You can read any name you want at any age, the difference being how much you understand and how much you get out of it.

The information age allows easy access to a mass of information, other people’s work to skim read, assimilate a bit and collate. The results look impressive but when you start a conversation you realise you have to take it down a notch and remember where you were yourself at the same age with understanding. I tried to speak French with a girl with an A-level A* in French and got replied to in English.

We had less to deal with, access was harder, but we dealt with it just as well, possibly better.

Anyhow, back on topic, the amount of pointless “education” kids have to get through to be able to work in a garden center is rising and it’s not surprising some kids end up disenfranchised.

Our parents came out of rationing- era so there were lower parental expectations from them too. Today IMO expectations > future outcomes and this is not helped by the modern mindset that anyone can achieve anything they want – the X Factor dream. It’s baloney and only increases the risk of mental health issues – again IMO.

Good points, but I’d argue that the wartime generation worked for a better tomorrow after the war and were positive that things would get better. It’s the 60’s to 70’s lot that really gave up on continuing that – a lot of them seem very comfortable and happy with the status quo.

I don’t think there are any change in expectations for our children, I just think that the comfortable lot are oblivious to their issues and fairly apathetic. Housing could be affordable, but that would upset those retired house owners.

FFS, they are reading Kant

You want to knock that on the head, before it gets out of hand! 😮

I’m going to add, it’s damaging our country at a far deeper level than people expect as well.

The Philippines is a dog eat dog country, you have to work insanely hard to get out of poverty/low wages and that encourages a mentality whereby everyone is out for themselves and their immediate family. It permeates throughout all walks of life by encouraging rampant corruption and nepotism. When people do make it, they wall themselves off in gated communities and the fact that they made it against all odds goes to their heads. The whole cycle is circular, overt corruption breeds contempt for the law which breeds more corruption.

That is where we are heading.

I know things have gone a bit off topic but I think that there are some excellent points being made about pressure and influence on younger people. Hopefully they are helping the OP.

Fascinating discussion – which has diverged somewhat from Ton’s issues.

And there have always been girls and boys who went off the rails. For girls perhaps the range of options for going off the rails has broadened…

But yes, we know that GCSEs and A levels have been subject to grade inflation (hence the move in GCSE to grading 1-9 in 2 years, when my younger child and my partner’s younger child do them). But I am also convinced most children work harder and are more motivated with greater expectations of themselves, of their schools and universities, and the future. But this leaves those who come off the rails even more distant from where the others are in life, qualifcations and achievements. Add into that a society built on material aspiration and self-defined celebrity, where many young people seem to live through social media and for today only, and you don’t need to be an old git like me to see issues arising…

I will just add this Ton, perhaps you could give “The True believer” and “The Passionate State of Mind” by Eric Hoffer as a present. Seriously, I haven’t found anything in politics or my own life that this guy somehow hasn’t managed to make any sense out of – 60 odd years since they were written. They aren’t self-help books, they are of a political bent but I found them quite enlightening personally as well.

A fateful process is set in motion when the individual is released “to the freedom of his own impotence” and left to justify his existence by his own efforts. The autonomous individual, striving to realize himself and prove his worth, has created all that is great in literature, art, music, science and technology. The autonomous individual, also, when he can neither realize himself nor justify his existence by his own efforts, is a breeding call of frustration, and the seed of the convulsions which shake our world to its foundations.

The individual on his own is stable only so long as he is possessed of self-esteem. The maintenance of self-esteem is a continuous task which taxes all of the individual’s powers and inner resources. We have to prove our worth and justify our existence anew each day. When, for whatever reason, self-esteem is unattainable, the autonomous individual becomes a highly explosive entity. He turns away from an unpromising self and plunges into the pursuit of pride — the explosive substitute for self-esteem. All social disturbances and upheavals have their roots in crises of individual self-esteem, and the great endeavor in which the masses most readily unite is basically a search for pride.

I became a lot more focused as an adult after I read his books.

Take your point on spoken language Edukator but not on cut and paste – especially given plagarism software. I was in the “its easier these days” camp until recently ie, when I read current essays and dissertations.