Delamere Riders....Your input appreciated.

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Delamere Riders....Your input appreciated.

79 posts & 36 voices | Started 2 years ago by mccett | Latest reply from curlie467

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sharkbait - Member

^^ What he said. I suspect that if you could put all the trails we [all] ride onto a map you'd think 'why do we need more?'

I don't really get who the FC are aiming at here.

Families will stick to the firetrails and more experienced bikers can go where they like. If they want to make it easier for new visitors to find their way around why not produce a map showing some of the existing natural trails?

The mud actually keeps walkers off most of the better bike trails and as such reduces the chance of conflict. Create 'nice' sanitised bike tracks and the walkers will go on them with the inevitable consequences.

End of the day, this will surely cost the FC a load of money, are they going to get that back just from car park income?

Posted 2 years ago #
tops 5 - Member

I agree that there is already a wealth of trails but would welcome them being sculpted a bit to add interest and and year round rideability. Surely there would be a place for this alongside the existing natural stuff?

Posted 2 years ago #
sharkbait - Member

would welcome them being sculpted a bit to add interest and and year round rideabilit

How can you improve on natural trails?

You can ride it year round - I do. In the summer it's pretty dry and in the winter you get muddy (remember the 'Joy of Filth'?).
You can't drain it and surfacing it will make it like riding a pavement through a wood...... crap.

I suspect a hidden agenda down the line.

Posted 2 years ago #
nickingsley - Member

Personally I am very wary of the FC getting involved in MTB trails around Delamere. The precedent of FC involvement is not good in Delamere with the alleged h+s issues being used to rip out the once very enjoyable dh track (well I used to find little problem on my XTC - so not that downhill but fun) from the mast down. I had noticed a few 6" humps appearing in the top section then Simon (FC manager at the time) appearing to this as an excuse to rip the whole dh run out. This was then followed up with a rather weak defence in the Chester Chronicle about vandalism - a few months later the FC built a new road to the top which cut right past the dh track and then the FC threw up a few stones at the top - which is quite attractive. BUT do you really accept the FC explanation of vandalism or was their motive perhaps blindingly obvious when the new road up to the mast and stones went in - the MTBers are in the way get rid - who were the real vandals in this case. A little bit of thought and planning would have allowed them to co-exist?

The concern is therefore the FC (and other well intentioned individuals) setting up a short xc MTB route around Delamere. A few months/a year later after the hard work has gone in and the fun starts , the FC restrict access to non way marked trails, the FC build new landmarks so some sections are ripped out and further restrictions implemented..................

You may think me cycical but the FC in Delamere have done themselves no favours by their past performance.

IMO
- Delamere is a great place to explore and trackdown the cracking sections of single track off the beaten track (I have been around the forest for 20 years and still find/get shown new routes)
- you can MTB for 3-4 hours with hardly any need to repeat sections so there is plenty out there - explore
- I don't have the quite the enthusiasm of some (Dave) for the gloop but thats Delamere and its great fun
- if you want manicured runs then Llandegla is great for that with bigger challenges available a bit further on at the Marin and Penmachno
- don't give the FC the opportunity to start restricting access to parts of the forest.

So please leave proposals for a xc circuit in Delamere just that a proposal not a reality.
- by all means develop the cycle skills area - it is great to see so many kids outdoors having a great time

Finally unless you have a young family and you are tootling about take care or avoid MTBing in the middle of Sundays around the cafe area as it does get very very busy with families, dogs, horses etc.....respect all forest users.

Posted 2 years ago #
mccett - Member

nic - I helped build the original 4x and dual course as well as the original DH runs in what is now the skills area (remember when it had trees and greenery growing on it!) For years I have been chopping branches, clearing trees, moving the few rocks, clearing numerous trails in the forest only to find them rippped out by rangers (or walkers, i dont know which). I was once nearly decapitated by wires across trees and when i pointed it out to the FC was told 'well you shouldnt be riding there'. I would have been the first person to think sod the FC... but they came to us first with this. To me this counts for something, they could have just bulldozed everything and we would carry on as we have for years, put some work in, get it ripped out 2 days later.

We have put our own money into this now getting insurance for the club and for trailbulding. If in 2 years time I get shat on by the FC, well i'll just keep riding the trails i have done for years and ride in Wales and the Peaks when its muddy and put it down to experience (again).

Thanks all for the interest and the comments, I hope that when we need volunteers there will be at least one or two that might want to help.

Posted 2 years ago #
Dave - Moderator

Mccett, DaveDodd,PaulMc and SteveR

drop me an email at dave@singletrackworld.com would you please :o)

Posted 2 years ago #
nickingsley - Member

It'll be interesting to see how this develops as it looks like a done deal - I just hope everyone gets something out of it.

Need to look on the positive side here - I can now crash for no good reason whatsoever on the new prepared trails in addition to me weekly offs on flat fire roads and unkempt singletrack.

Posted 2 years ago #
davedodd - Member

Nic,

I'm sure we can find some other surfaces for you to crash on as well!!
See you Monday.

Dave

Posted 2 years ago #
JonBurns - Member

Will you be better by Monday Dave? or do you just need that Sunday in front of the telly to sort yourself out?

Posted 2 years ago #
davedodd - Member

Jon,
Depends if the antibiotics have worked by then. Doc suggested something bronchial when I saw him yesterday.
Have a good day on Sunday. Hope the weathers good for you.

Posted 2 years ago #
davedodd - Member

The fact that the Australian GP is on is a bonus though

Posted 2 years ago #
JonBurns - Member

Probably the wise decision, I'll text you 1-2 words to say how it goes

Posted 2 years ago #
velocipede - Member

Just to add a bit of fuel to this....

....I have lived within 10 mins ride of the forest for 17 years and rise there two or three times/week. We go to the visitor centre every saturday morning with our kids (now 12 yrs old), enjoy our lunch and ride home. I go out for 10 mile+ rides through the forest during the week.

Like others on here, I still find new trails!!!

My problem with the suggestion of new trails is simple:

Go Ape and Tracs, whilst generating a positive economic benefit for the Forest, have in my opinion spoilt the ambience and feel of the place. Weekends are virtually impossible to enjoy in 80% of the forest now as the area is just so busy....as unpalatable as it sounds, I feel as though "my" forest is being slowly destroyed before my eyes; the trails are deteriorating through overuse, and they are filled with more and more people (wlkers, Go-Apers, horses and mtb'ers).

Having some new trails would be great but, perhaps like some others on here, I feel pretty strongly that the forest cannot sustain the development that it is already carrying and encouraging yet more people to go there will actually have a further detrimental effect.

Financial sustainability is one thing, but true environmental sustainability and the continued "usability" of the forest are surely more important....

Posted 2 years ago #
nickingsley - Member

Anybody noticed anything different ?

Posted 2 years ago #
bikemonkey - Member

Went last weekend - the signposted trails seem to have been re-signposted.

Anything else?

Posted 2 years ago #
loulouk - Member

Hang about, does this possibly mean that we can now mountain bike around Delamere without someone following us with a spaniel cannon, specifically firing dogs in front of our wheels leading to sudden slam ons and comedy careering into bushes in an effort to not hit aforementioned spaniels?
And why do they all have spaniels anyway?
Cos, you know, for those of us stupid enough to drive down from Lancs to try something easy as our first try at mountain biking, it sure was scary but in all the wrong ways.

Posted 2 years ago #
Russell96 - Member

You forget to mention that the Spaniel Cannon also fires cluster munitions that result in copious amounts of Dog Eggs.

Posted 2 years ago #
Teetosugars - Member

nickingsley - Member
Anybody noticed anything different ?

Errr, no?

Posted 2 years ago #
mAx_hEadSet - Member

I have had a lot of dealings with the Forestry Commission in Wales and England since the beginnings at Coed y Brenin, and much else in North Wales as well as in the Shropshire Borders and those who think these guys will just draw a line on a map and it will be built are not going to find that is the case.

First thing for those who simply see money being tipped into Forestry Land to make recreation facilities on demand, you need note is the FC do not appear these days to have much capital money to develop these facilities and usually are dependant on finding partners with funds to set this stuff out. Those with funds could be the Economic Development Agencies or County Councils or for low level developments a group of users offering free labour may be sufficient.

The FC most often is able to offer the value of it's technical expertise and land to enable other groups to use that as match funding to get grants that may be available to non government projects from Europe or Westminster or even charities. The problem is these grants which were rolling around for the begging 10 years ago when you needed to build the likes of Penmachno are not so readily available without a considerable amount of work so much so the grant raising process can consume more work than the trail creation.

I would suggest as much as you talk to the FC find out if they are going to find the money or expect you to help in which case you need making early contact with the new Cheshire CC, which being split may have only half the funds it had before and the regional tourism, health, sports and economic development agencies to ask if they know of funding that may be available you could access would be a benefit. The worse danger when working in groups relying on volunteers is that you get the designs but the fund raising takes far too long and the volunteers lose focus and drift away. The language you will have to learn to use when engaged with funding culture is a whole new world of buzzspeak and cliche that can be quite distressing once you realise you have picked it up.

You will also need to be aware as alluded to here by others that building a trail in a small and busy forest surrounded by areas of significant population, there will be many other users who currently find cyclists a nuisance will when the trails are built will not think it unreasonable to put pressure on the forestry to restrict cyclists to those trails. It depends very much on the make up of the local FC staff whether they stand up or capitulate against such pressure, I have seen examples of both. You will need to establish at an early stage that your own involvement is dependant on the remaining access to a wider informal network of trails if you are not going to get drawn into being party to it's restriction at the end.

Posted 2 years ago #
nickingsley - Member

mAx_hEadSet - a healthy reality check. Marvellous. You just made my day.

Posted 2 years ago #
mccett - Member

All valid points and ones that have already been discussed with the FC. FC have an open access policy, they cant restrict cycling in other parts of the forest even if they do signpost trails.

The Skills Area (which is prob of least interest to those on here - and me to be honest) is their first priority. After the waste of time that was the hundred tonnes of dirt which was delivered and wrecked by riders in the rain, signage has been agreed and work done on genrally organising the place is planned alongside the trail repairs due to all the halfwits who rode all over the 4X when it was wet. Surprisingly it was more the xc riders than the youngsters doing this from what i saw.

Can i once again point out that the idea of 'waymarked' trails in the forest is one that the FC have come up with and they approached me/us. Some days i really would rather be out in the hills riding for myself, but looking after trails close by is important to me. As i have tried to say before, you can either get involved or bitch and moan once they come along and put something crap in without any involvement from riders. I do feel that i am setting myself up for a fall as not one person (despite all the replies on here) has been in touch to give their input in an organised way with myself and the ranger... positive or negative. All we have had is 'our trails will be ruined'. Thats exactly what i am trying to avoid. I wonder how organisatins like the Cannock riders and Singletraction get so many people involved without all the negativity?

As a little update I took the Rec Ranger dealing with the project on a ride a couple weeks ago to show him some trails, putting together a 'blue' loop and a 'red' alternative (their words) to link up. He was very positive and very keen on keeping off the fire roads and opening up new sections of the forest with singletrack. Its a bloody slow process and the paperwork and red tape is a pain but hopefully it will come good.

I will try to keep people updated, if you want to know anything specific please get in touch.

Thanks.

Posted 2 years ago #
al_f - Member

I do feel that i am setting myself up for a fall as not one person (despite all the replies on here) has been in touch to give their input in an organised way with myself and the ranger... positive or negative.

To be honest it was this that put me off:

All meetings with the FC are open to all DRC club members so please feel free to join up and come along.

While in a lot of ways I applaud you for getting involved, why should your club members be the only people who get any input into what's done in the forest? Or, to put it another way, why should the rest of the people who ride there (the majority of the people who use the place?) be cut out of the decision-making because they're not in your club? Funnelling everything through your club smacks a bit of a few people coming in and deciding what's best for everyone (i.e. what's best for them) without having any sort of wider consultation. Sorry if I've taken the wrong message from that. Also, I share the the concerns detailed earlier in the thread about impact on the forest, possible issues with segregation, changing the character of the trails etc.

The Skills Area (which is prob of least interest to those on here - and me to be honest) is their first priority.

To me a skills area is what they've got in Llandegla, not a 4X track and a few jumps. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place though, or maybe I'm just not wanting to develop the right sort of skills...

Posted 2 years ago #
steve_b77 - Member

I clocked three new bridges, one over a tree and the other over it's root cavity.

Also one linking to an earlier one further on, all in that twisty bit in the wood at the top of PITA climb after rooty descent of death*[i] and the crossing of [i]little bog of horrors) on Saturday night and again on Sunday morning.

*thats what I and my mates call them anyway

Oh yeah did someone especially place a bit of slippy bog mud on the crossing early Sunday morning, 'cos I swear it wasn't there on Saturday night - said mud caused large crash and much knee pain all week

On another note, is MOnday on?

Posted 2 years ago #
mccett - Member

al-f - Fine, email me, see OP - the club is a way for the FC to deal with a recognised body to comply with their rules and regs.... Or they could waste their time dealing with 17 different groups who ride there??

'Skills area' - its the name the FC gave it years ago - lets not get hung up about it.

The FC have put up notices in the forest to all riders to point them in the direction of the club so that if they have any useful input they can get their point across. I dont care if you are a member or not, i'll listen to anyone - likewise the FC know that listening to the collective opinion of 50 people will be better than 2. I have put the points made here across to the FC and shown them this thread so that they are aware of the feelings of a number of riders. They would like to hear from you.

Thanks again for your comments.

Posted 2 years ago #
PaulMc - Member

Tony,
Good to meet you last night, that was an excellent, if fast, ride. I signed up to your club website almost immediately and have checked the forum periodically since but I have spotted nothing relating to the plans. Am I missing something?
Paul

Posted 2 years ago #
Milt - Member

I think a good start would be simply adding a few more bits of woodwork over some of the drainage ditches & perhaps some measures to try to prevent some of the ever widening sections of trail becoming wider/more damaged.

There's plenty of untapped quiet areas which could easily be opened up/have trails in by just putting in a few bridges over the drainage ditches.

Anyone know about "private land" signs that appeared in the last couple of months at the entance to one of the trails up near the house in the woods?

Posted 2 years ago #
mccett - Member

Paul,

Have to say the forum can be a bit haphazard and sometimes things get put in the Committee forum instead of the public ones. Still a slow process with the FC but when things are finalised or there is newsworthy stuff sorted it gets put on... In the meantime you will have to sift through the 'gnar' and 'rad' ramblings of some of the younger lads and me trying not to bite when some scrote tells us we are all a bunch of *****. Least that hasnt happened here yet.

Aye, good ride. Think the twelve50 lads want to make it regular thing for Wednesdays if we can. Pace to be agreed dependent on how fit i feel or if i just came off nights.

Milt - cheers, someone on the right wavelength - the very stuff i was discussing with the ranger the other week on a ride. Which house are you meaning in the woods? After the Visitors centre or out towards the hospital? Will try and find out - usually just residents trying to deter people walking past their pad.

Posted 2 years ago #
EccentricEllis - Member

I love Delamere.

There is so much to ride and loads of really techy bits, Yeah it is a bit flat but if you know where to look it's got some really fast (and quite long) sections.

It is about knowing where everything is though, I've been riding with Olly from Tracs for years (We've moved from previous bike shops in the area, naming no names ) And everytime i go i always find something new. Olly knows the area really well as does the guy from Delamere MTB Tours. I rode with him for about 5 hours and it was pretty gnarly.

Waymarked trails would be good, however, the beauty of Delly is that the proper stuff isn't shouted from the rooftops. It's maintained (to some degree) by the riders and isn't abused.
Having a Llandegla style trail would ruin the Forrest IMHO. Yes it would bring more people to the area and more profit's to the businesses which is great but at what cost to the trails and area surrounding?

Everytime i go to Llandegla there is rubbish and innertubes and what not hanging around, We need to keep this between proper cyclists who'll appreciate it for what it is, and if there are going to be "propper" trails, have them away from the best bits to keep them as they should be.

Sorry about the rant.
Keep it real.
Ellis.

Posted 2 years ago #
stever - Member

I've chewed on this for a while and can't avoid sounding NIMBY, but still... I simply don't want the area promoting. It will only increase traffic, and it's not a big enough area to sustain many more visits. I want my quiet secluded spots to stay that way, I don't particularly want them improving.

If someone builds a bridge, I'm not pig-headed enough to ride around it, I'll use it same as the next person. But if it stayed boggy as previously, equally I'd find a different way or get dirty, same as you do everywhere else in 'real life'. If you're talking about a few low-key improvements, a step-up from what has always happened informally and without fuss, that's one thing. If you're talking waymarked 'red routes', etc., that crosses a line for me and wouldn't be something I'd welcome. Having said all that I'm not going to go out picketing, I'm not an organiser or protester, I'll just carry on doing my own thing.

Delamere is some of the closest I have locally to soulful riding. Every bit of planning and control that's gone into a trail chips away at that. I prefer my riding a bit more punk rock (or hip-hop, whatever), doing your own thing. If it's a bit messy by objective standards, it's at least organic and spontaneous and I'm still having fun. If I want the scalextric experience, an equally valid way of spending a Sunday, I'll carry on for half an hour and go to Llandegla. That's more X-Factor, entertainment none the less, but in packaged form. Different and ultimately more throwaway.

Posted 2 years ago #
al_f - Member

mccett - Member
I have put the points made here across to the FC and shown them this thread so that they are aware of the feelings of a number of riders. They would like to hear from you.

Thanks again for your comments.

Cheers for that, will drop you a mail - likely not until next week though as work is a bit hectic!

Posted 2 years ago #
Milt - Member

between Kingswood cottage & pinewood farm. There's a trail heading south that leads off the bridleway (fireroad) just near the FC gate. the entrance is right by the FC barrier so they might be right, but no fences have to be crossed & its been there a few years. signs appeared in the last couple of months pinned to 2 or 3 trees. think they might of been taken down by people, put up again etc.

Posted 2 years ago #
snowpaul - Member

Hello chaps

I personally know olly / tony and ellis and I have ridden delamere for 20 plus years - I know dave dood / marmoset / ti pin man etc and I agree whole heartedly with the anti comments... I am very wary of the FC esp how the whole trail destruction fiasco was handled. The reporting of logs /wires in the past hasnt exactly been dealt with well.

I really think the FC will screw this up and not be in the interest of riders - the forest DOES not need any more riders or armoured trails as that will spoil the place - I cannot believe that non of the existing good stuff will not be carpeted over at all... If the trail is 100 pc brand new and wont touch any of the sweet s/track I will be amazed.

The mud is part of the appeal - IF people want armoured easy trails then ride the firteroads...

The only real people who will benefit will be the bike hire place tracs in my opinion - hence their keeness as it will be good for business I am sure - its trying to be a llandegla and thats not what I want from delamere.

Am I alone in thinking this - i may well be willing to help in the future but I am very very sceptical - I say bang on SteveR and Eccentric Ellis !

paul

Posted 2 years ago #
trackmaxi - Member

Hi Guys

Just a few comments/thoughts to share.....

1. If the FC decide to put a trail in(Which it seems they are doing) regardless of what people say on here. Would it not be better to have voice and tell them your concerns directly, and have an input into the design, route and type of trail it will be.
Or you can just bitch and whine at the people trying to create that interface i.e. Tony (MCCET) and be children and keyboard warriors.

2. The bottom line is, the FC will put the trail in, and if you only use this forum to vent your opinions, they aren't going to listen. Be adult and approach the correct people through the right channels.

3. The FC WILL NOT listen to random peoples voices, it needs to be through a recognised user group i.e. The Delamere Riders Club (OR ANY OTHER GROUP IF THEY CAN BE BOTHERED TO GO THROUGH THE HASSLE OF SETTING ONE UP?)
These guys have setup a club because the FC said it is POLICY that they can only talk to a recognised user group.
Again, be adults and join the DRC - Its free, then take the time to attend the meetings and voice your opinion.

4. If you feel so strongly against the new trails DONT USE THEM!!!! They will be there whether you like it or not. At the end of the day, the FC are looking at ways of making some more £££ from the forest, they look at other areas making £££ from cycling and they will do the same.

5. The cycle trail that goes is in, will more than likely be used by the type of people that will stick to said trail and won't go looking for your own "personal" routes.
Myself, when I go to a trail centre, I never go "looking" for secret trails, and I doubt people will do the same at Delamere?!
Yes they may incorporate your "personal" trails in some areas which may be a shame, but who has said they will or not? And if you never attend any of the meetings, you won't find out until it's too late.
Go there, talk to the FC and if there's a particular area that a group of you feel strongly about being used, I am sure the FC will listen and plan accordingly. Again, stay silent and they will do what they think is best!!

I am not having a rant, nor am for/against the trails, I have ridden Delamere for 15yrs and still think it's awesome fun. Would I ride a marked trail? Why not, it can lead me to new areas that I might be able to make my own way around!
Yes I enjoy the mud bath that Delamere becomes in the winter, but sometimes I want a quick blast without the muddy cleaning after.

At the end of the day, most of you on here are being very childish and not actually standing up and doing anything about your opinions, you are just whining on an internet forum and creating a lot of negativity.

Bottom line:- Moan on here, your opinion means nothing to the FC and they will do the best job they can without rider input.

Or:- Join the DRC (Its free) and go to the meetings and voice your concerns, I am sure you can be grown ups about it if you try!!

Good luck to anyone involved with the process and the interface between riders and FC (Thats MCCET and Co...) You are going through a process that nobody else can be bothered to do, regardless of the amount of moaning they do on here. And it will be a thankless task, but GOOD LUCK!!! And well done for having the balls to stand up and try!!

Enjoy your riding, it's what we are all her for at the end of the day!!

Posted 2 years ago #
stever - Member

For what it's worth, I think this has been quite an interesting and grown-up discussion; a long way from childish. And wasn't there mention that the FC were keeping an eye on this thread?

Posted 2 years ago #
colp - Member

Moomin - there was a some ahem... North Shore built. It was taken out by the FC yes but it was hardly a loss to the trails. The only trail that was originally built with the agreement of the FC is the 4x which although well worn out has never been demolished and Old Pale DH which was closed due to H&S issues - and lack of use - and complaints because it exited onto a picnic area....

How was the northshore "ahem"?
It was built as part of an xc loop to get you over some very boggy ground and avoid riding up the road. So it was true to the original northshore idea.
It was made from 3x3 tanelized and treated uprights and stringers with decking, and 10mmm threaded rod bolted everything together.

It was approved by the FC before construction and was only taken down when the original bike club ceased operating so there was no formal maintenance agreement.
It wasn't to everyone's taste but it was very well built and a lot of people enjoyed giving it a go.

Old Pale wasn't demolished for lack of use, also, there were no complaints about the exit as far as I know. It had plenty of use, was 2 or 3 years in planning and approval. It all came down to politics.

Good luck with what you are trying to do though, I know how hard work it is. Regarding a full blown armoured XC loop, I just can't see it. Depending on the results of soil studies, I calculated you would need around £400,000 of funding. Delamere already has the most visitors per square foot of any UK forest, so there is no impetus there for development. Cheshire also doesn't need to drive tourism like many other places where funding has been given.

A little bit of "touching up" here and there would be nice though, make it a bit more flowy and a bit less of a slog in Winter.

The work on the 4x track is great so far, pity about people riding it in the wet. I'll pay for a day with the digger to finish it off it that helps?

Posted 2 years ago #