I’ve just been reading a post about spring vs. air springs. What i found most interesting is that of say 28 posts, only a couple represent points from someone who actually understands the science behind it all. The majority are just people’s opinions. I suppose that’s what forums are for?

But it all got me thinking. Why is there not a book (old fashioned) or website (perhaps a sub part of this website?) where the age old questions are actually answered by someone who knows.

So for example a section on different spring technologies. A proper scientific report, with real data for different solutions presented, and a summarising conclusion.

This little bit of time up front would perhaps help us progress our understand and lead to improved bike designs, rather than keeping the information in the heads of a selected few.

Being an engineer myself i know that efficient dissemination of information is not out strong point, but it can be done. A more viable solution is perhaps some kind of Wikipedia where anyone (within reason) can edit the article.

So who wants to take this on?

Question i would like to see researched are:

-Springs; air vs. coil;
-Damping explained;
-Brake pad compounds;
-Distribution of mass;
-Hydraulic oil; DOT vs. mineral;
-Frame gussets, how do they work;
-Many more!!!

Perhaps my problem is that the same old topics keep coming up without any progress being made. We need to move the discussion forward, this can only be done by recording the valid points and continually updating.

Wot D’Ya Chinny Reckon?

Just swapped my Rockshox Reba Race forks for a pair of rigid carbon ones.

On fast, hard packed trails (I guess that’s most places at the moment), the only difference you notice is how much faster you’re going and how much easier the climbs are.

Suspension? That’s what you elbows and knees are for.

Fully rigid – it’s the future

‘mass debates’

<snigger>

There is good well-informed info out there – Sheldon Brown is the classic one for bicycles generally, and for stuff like shocks, disc brakes and frame materials Ed Haythornthwaite’s articles in Dirt are easy to understand and debunk some of the myths. There’s good well-informed info on this forum too, and over time it’s easy to spot the spouters of chuff.

im a reverse engineer.
if it aint broke…. strip it down to component parts and see how it works.

i like to fiddle.
im happier to come on here and get a “general concensous” that lets me make my own informed decisions (on things like suss setup) rather than have someone TELL me what its saying is correct.

if your proposed bikewikipedia did come about, i would use the information therein, in addition to the chuff, to make a further informed decision.
much as i love the great Sheldon Brown (RIP) as he was totally mad, and like me much more keen on working out a complicated bodge than buying the kit for the job, because its more fun that way….. i did however disagree with some of his opinons.
i dont think he would have been bothered at all about that either.

part of the fun with bikes is tinkering for me.
take away the “unknowns” and it become plain old “maintenence”
which is dull.
i also like to know that nobody will have a bike the same as mine, because of all the little details that i appreicate and no one else even notices

in answer to your question, as Mr A says, there are many excellent articles out there.
hidden among the chuff.
park website clearly explains most stuff.
sheldons wheel build guide is excellent (it is a guide, not instructions)
im certain ive seen an excellent one on suspension.
it doesnt tell you “how to set up suspension”
it explains what each function does, how it works, and what an average rider would aim to achieve as a base starting point.

one could certainly make an index website that links all these useful sources of information?

Its a good point tho, i make torsional dampers for crankshafts and understand the principal behind damping if not the science and maths. I would venture to say that most riders have a fit and forget attitude to shocks and forks and its only a few of us that like to tinker with them! It would be nice to have an informative site/page where i could find out what would happen if i did ‘this to that’!! I’m still wondering why i’m setting fork sag according to my body weight when i’m pretty sure my forks never have to carry all my body weight!!!

Thanks for the replies so far.

However, the Sheldon Brown and Park websites for example mainly focus on what needs to be done to maintain/repair a bike. What i’m interested in is the actual science/physics about what goes on.

This is like the difference between a mechanic and a engineer if you like?

Ed H’s articles are very good, but this is the kind if thing i’d like (or someone else as I’m lazy) to further develop.

some one said in one of the many suspension articles that there have been in mags, that suspension in motor sport has pretty much peaked.
mountain biking is the only place where there is more to be learnt, due to the need to isolate rider input and maximise efficency while reducing weight.

much as i love the great Sheldon Brown (RIP) as he was totally mad, and like me much more keen on working out a complicated bodge than buying the kit for the job, because its more fun that way….. i did however disagree with some of his opinons.

Such as?

Have to say that I’ve never found a single thing Sheldon wrote which I disagree with – he tends to state facts rather than have opinions – and I do wonder whether that comment exemplifies the reason why the sort of thing the OP proposes won’t get rid of all the debates and the unknowledgeable spouting opinions. That’s because people simply won’t believe some things if it goes against their “common sense” or what they feel. The thing is the vast majority of the science is well understood by the proper scientists and engineers – it’s just that cycling folklore continues to be passed down by the riders and mechanics who don’t actually have a full understanding.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html#ride is a classic example of where he is spot on, yet you’ll get loads of people on here disagreeing with him.

You seem to have missed the rather obvious point that often there ARE no clear answers, hence the diversity of frame designs and materials etc, moreover, many of us enjoy a good argument and are quite happy to make up any facts we need without recourse to tedious research :o)

Just had a look through the Sheldon Brown Frame Materials page. Yup it’s very good; discusses the major materials in a clear, simple, un-opinionated manner. This is good stuff.

However, it’s not state of the art. Frame manufacture has progressed, this page needs to be updated and expanded. It needs to be expanded to cover issues suct as how modern tubing manipulation can effect materials choice. How suspension frame requirements affect material choice. Admittedly, the title is “Frame Materials for the Touring Cyclist”, but should we not strive to coninue expanding and documenting our knowledge giving “Frame Materials for the Modern Off Road Cyclist.

Why be happy with just a part of the story when we could have the whole?

In theory this is a nice idea, but you would have to find scientists, engineers and riders all rolled into one. Then get several of them together and then do some testing in all climates, conditions, etc etc. All for free.

Then after all that people would still end up believing the results provided by the group who communicated them better. If the results were unfashionable or controversial some will not believe them. Some people wont / cant change their minds.

The other problem you will get is because its on a forum idiots will have just as loud a voice as intelligent contributors – plus, some people will expect a democracy which tends to lower the intelectual value of all contributions as we end up having to give voice to these idiots and that can drown out the correct answer.

Nice idea, but I dont see it working. Stick to having an open, questioning mind and find out your own answers. Then when you reckon you have them get on the forum and shout about them.

Just how old is Sheldon Brown ?

Trimix – he’s dead!

Phutend – everything you’ve listed is already available to read on the internet, you’re just not looking hard enough.

he tends to state facts rather than have opinions

Not entirely sure about that. 😉

Downhill Racing

I consider this fad to be bad for cycling, and contrary to the spirit of cycling. It is effectively just a variant form of motorcycle racing, since most of the power is provided by the machinery that carries the rider and bike to the top of the run. Bicycling should be a human-powered activity, or it is not bicycling to me.

Trimax, he sadly passed away last year at the age of 63.

GW – Go on then, find me some information on how a frame gusset works.

Not just “it redistributes the stresses” but some actual numbers, stress plots, force balances…..

What’y’got?

However, it’s not state of the art. Frame manufacture has progressed, this page needs to be updated and expanded. It needs to be expanded to cover issues suct as how modern tubing manipulation can effect materials choice. How suspension frame requirements affect material choice. Admittedly, the title is “Frame Materials for the Touring Cyclist”, but should we not strive to coninue expanding and documenting our knowledge giving “Frame Materials for the Modern Off Road Cyclist.

But none of that actually changes anything he wrote fundamentally. Tubing manipulation simply changes wall thickness / tubing diameter in a slightly less constrained way, sus frames just need to be stiffer. About the only thing that does need expanding on is the bit on carbon fibre, which I suspect he did never fully understand, and he is a tad behind the times.

True, Sheldon’s original points are still valid. Nothing he says is wrong and it still all applies. But he mentions that frame design rather than material is more critical, why not expand this?

What about a sticky thread for each topic that is felt to eb interested, with an owner who regularly collates the information posted and updates an assosiciated report?

-Many more!!!

Would a plane on a conveyor belt be able to take off?

Where would the fun be if we knew all the answers ?

this page needs to be updated and expanded. It needs to be expanded to cover issues suct as how modern tubing manipulation can effect materials choice.

good luck with the ouija board:o)

If all the ‘age old questions’ were answered informatively and accurately by people who know what they’re talking about then this forum (for one) would just die out – it’s talking ballcocks and pron that keep t’internet alive 😉

Anyway, you don’t need exhaustive research, just wait for TJ to post THE ANSWER……

Just swapped my Rockshox Reba Race forks for a pair of rigid carbon ones.

On fast, hard packed trails (I guess that’s most places at the moment), the only difference you notice is how much faster you’re going and how much easier the climbs are.

Suspension? That’s what you elbows and knees are for.

Fully rigid – it’s the future
amen dude