In the hope that someone on here has experience of sailing…

After 3 years of summer lessons, my 11-year-old son has gone as far as he can in his ‘pre-competition’ oppie, and we have been told that for him to progress, we need to buy him a £1000 competition oppie so that he can sail all year and start competing.

Now, I don’t mind either the expense or the competition, but is competition the only way forward for a kid who just wants to become a good sailer?

Competition is one way, fun is another!

I used to race down in Salcombe, but I progressed more just ‘messing about in boats’

Oppies are great, but at that age, I’d moved on to Toppers and had just started with Lasers.

Competition can be great, but I just found it a little limiting – one boat, same boat, etc. I now just have fun!

Try a Neilson holiday. He could really progress there, in terms of ability and boat types.

At 13 I used 2 years worth of savings to buy an old Inernational Moth….theres a fast track to becoming a good sailor.And a good swimmer 😀

Try some races in his current boat, see if he likes competing, before spending £lots on something he might not use much. If he can well in that then even better!
£1k does seem a lot for an Oppie though? That sort of cash should get you a not-too-old Laser at least.
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[EDIT] A Moth at 13!? Nice one.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oygQ8NDLx7A[/video]
Nope, for the young sailor who wants to take it forwards there’s windsurfing.

I’ve spent the last 25 yrs racing (only 30 now) first experience was racing the family 32′ cruiser racer. Move to dinghies at about 12 mostly racing ents with a mate, then into 420 then 470 then fireball and finishing recently in B14’s occasionally.

At the start I did quite a bit in a topper racing but we used to laugh at Oppie kids. Quickly moving to lasers.

I remember the kids winning everything always had good gear. Sorry but old boats are heavy, things break and cost you races. Sails will be great on new boats and top kids will have new ones often. Old sail will be baggy and that creates drag.

the answer is a new boat will probably keep him enthused and hence competitive breeds enthusiasm. Loads of my mates haven’t sailed for years and fell out of it. I never had great gear but generally good stuff and went on to do lots Inc win a euro champs and delivery trips to Gran canaria before being 25.

Whatever you choose he won’t be there long and will be in toppers soon.

for him to progress, we need to buy him a £1000 competition oppie

A bit of a WTF moment?

I had a £250 mirror dingy bought by my parents, sold that to buy a laser for £500 with £250 of my own money a few years later, when I sold that the original £250 was paid back.

At 11 how much use will he get from an oppie? Surely time to start looking at a topper? If he’s a real lightweight he might wrap the sail round the mast for a while to reduce the area, but at 11 I borrowed an oppie for a training session and remember practically sinking it (and resenting all the other kids in toppers).

Sorry but old boats are heavy, things break and cost you races. Sails will be great on new boats and top kids will have new ones often. Old sail will be baggy and that creates drag.

Most one design classes the old boats are as competative as the new ones, old boat + new sails = cheep win (or a good practice for making excuses in the yacht club bar when he’s older).

As a side note, toppers have a really good handicap for some reason compared to oppies and lasers.

If he enjoys racing and will have access to quality coaching and support then he will definitely benefit from it in the future. The most important thing is him enjoying it, if that’s racing or cruising around with family, he will let you know I’m sure!

I’ve done a fair bit of sailing, and i’d go with a laser. Start off with a 4.7, and as he gets better and heavier, progress onto a radial then a full rig. It means you don’t need to keep buying a new boat, and there are loads of spares around. Watch out for old masts though, they’re known to corrode and then snap, but i think that was fixed a fair while ago.

Out of interest, where is he sailing?

old boat + new sails = cheep win.

Not always the case though. Yep strict OD helps but there’s a reason top guys are using new laser hulls.

Older hull weights increase, flex in boards, rudder pintails move and flex, water take on. Lasers have bother with mast bases etc.

What you will find though is depreciation isn’t too bad. I made 8k on a melges 24 recently excluding running costs though as they were huge.

@CFH

Cardiff Bay

Not denying that new boats are better, but club races aren’t going to be won by those kind of margins, especially for an 11 yr old.

You could always buy a proper sized yacht for 5.5k more & all enjoy it,holidays,race it etc ? I know where there’s a Prospect 900 that just needs a few quid spent on it & some elbow grease to make it gorgeous again.Comes with a full set of sails,GPS,depth sounder,autohelm & a 13.5 hp engine with only about 200hrs of use…

One issue that I assume is a problem is that neither I nor my wife are sailors (of this type!), which means that we don’t know exactly how to support the child as he moves up in class.

So, for example, I have only seen the kids in oppies and toppers out with the instructors, and have therefore assumed that progressing through those classes was the only way forward. Certainly that seems to be the way the instructors have structured things at the club.

Is it normal to have the freedom to pursue sailing in whatever type of dinghy one wants? If so, is it just the place our son sails that goes from oppie to topper (and then only after the child reaches a certain weight)? Alas, I have nothing to compare it to.

I think the key question is, does he want to sail, or does he want to race. That may well decide your next step.

Sailing in the locally supported classes is beneficial if they have a structure in place to support that and as neither you nor your wife sail then having that support will be important.

there’s a reason top guys are using new laser hulls

Because if you’re on the new boat/finance cycle it’s hardly any more expensive to get a whole new boat than to buy a new sail 🙂

OP: Is this a sailing club or a watersports training place? If he wants to race then go with whatever there’s a big group of — racing against the same kind of boats teaches way more than handicap racing. It’s unlikely that he “needs” a £1k Optimist (and at 11 he’s pushing the top of the Oppie age range already — they sail them to 14 but they look a bit daft 😉 ), but as others have pointed out, boats hold their value well.

Tough to beat Toppers for kids, really. Good racing if he wants to, but also sturdy enough for mucking about. The “how many people can you get on a Topper before it sinks” game never gets old 🙂

The “how many people can you get on a Topper before it sinks” game never gets old

They can still keep going when they’re well below the waterline! 🙂

I wish they had these when I was sailing
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW_UfYGO3Kg&feature=related[/video]

@MikeD

It’s a sailing club, and although 11, my son’s a small guy. It would seem, though, that keeping him in the class and letting him move up as he ages/gets bigger will be the way to go.

In any case,

@ everyone who has answered my original question and the subsequent ones:

There has been some really helpful advice on here. Thanks.

CFH, I was down in That Salcombe last week. Nice little place, bit yachty though, and a bugger to get around. Preferred East Portlemouth for the beach, and use the ferry to get across the river if necessary.
I liked this view:

This’ll come across as a bit of a rant, but its really, really not. There really is no need to go on a spending war to ‘buy’ places in the fleet. I assume that your son does have a boat at thee moment? If not then really, it does get difficult for him to progress on his own. In which case any oppie or topper would be fine. However, why not buy a cheaper one and ‘upgrade’ the sail, centre board etc as he starts to win races?
To get him to progress. Possibly the best way is to let him love sailing. Don’t be a pushy parent (oppie parents are notorious for this!), let him sail and muck around with his mates at the club. Then, to learn to race big fleets, get him crewing. Something like an RS200 or national 12 would be great. With an experienced helm, he’ll learn loads without realising it. Then suddenly he’ll be able to put his fun sailing (boat handling and helming) together with his crewing (tactics and race skills) and he’ll be on to a winner!
One thing that strikes me about a lot of the national squads etc is the total disregarding that happens as soon as an individual doesn’t come up to speed. Too many young sailers are lost this way as they get disillusuend with is as they have no fun along the way.
Oh, and don’t get him a laser. They simply are not ‘fun’ in any sense Of the word. He’ll be ready for one when he asks!

transapp – Member
This’ll come across as a bit of a rant, but its really, really not. There really is no need to go on a spending war to ‘buy’ places in the fleet. I assume that your son does have a boat at thee moment? If not then really, it does get difficult for him to progress on his own. In which case any oppie or topper would be fine. However, why not buy a cheaper one and ‘upgrade’ the sail, centre board etc as he starts to win races?
To get him to progress. Possibly the best way is to let him love sailing. Don’t be a pushy parent (oppie parents are notorious for this!), let him sail and muck around with his mates at the club. Then, to learn to race big fleets, get him crewing. Something like an RS200 or national 12 would be great. With an experienced helm, he’ll learn loads without realising it. Then suddenly he’ll be able to put his fun sailing (boat handling and helming) together with his crewing (tactics and race skills) and he’ll be on to a winner!
One thing that strikes me about a lot of the national squads etc is the total disregarding that happens as soon as an individual doesn’t come up to speed. Too many young sailers are lost this way as they get disillusuend with is as they have no fun along the way.
Oh, and don’t get him a laser. They simply are not ‘fun’ in any sense Of the word. He’ll be ready for one when he asks!

+ 1
The meat Grinder that is the RYA squad system is no place for your loved ones unless they are uber talented and even then it really is best avoided..

Go onto this site and ask on there, they are a friendly bunch with no Agendas, you’ll get good advice from them, lots of ex kids grown up with damaged knees from sailing Lasers too young..

Topper or laser will be best. If you don’t want to buy new sails (different sizes) just “reef” the ones you have.

Wrap them round the mast a few times before connecting it to the out haul on the boom.

Interesting site derickrides – I bought an RS200 of the guy who runs it!

transapp – Member
Interesting site derickrides – I bought an RS200 of the guy who runs it!

Heaven help us all if he find this place, he’s a bit of a forum warlord.. Nice guy though, met him once myself.

Count, EP is, or at least was, the right side of the estuary. Salcombe always was a bit “yachty”, but it used to be a bit more “real” yachty. People went there to sail. Now, people go there to dress like people who sail, or at least to dress like people who wished they sailed.

Looks a little like Dunedin on the right of your pic, she was a lovely, lovely little thing. A dive boat now, I believe.

And, as we’re talking about East Portlemouth and Salcombe….

Jim’s own, sail number 183. Beautiful!

ohh, lovely. Not cheap though!

@ Derick Rides, yep, it’d be good to have him and GRF knocking around!

You need to find out if he wants to sail or race or is he only going down te raceroute as that what’ve thinks is expected of him?
As some one who has sailed from a young age I can say i was never interested in racing as I like to sill where I want and if I’m having fun on a particular point of sail then that’s where I want to stay. I was a member of the local sea scouts who had various different boats to go out and play in and you could race against your mates if you wanted to with out having to do the whole rigmarole of proper racing. I still don’t see the appeal of it I have fun sailing my dart including going exploring on her plus it means I’m not so worryed about having the latest bit of kit.

Some interesting thoughts above. If I were you I’d avoid the Oppi route like the plague – unless you are desperate to get involved in the RYA program (and he’s probably a bit too late now amazingly). The boats are very expensive for what they are (£1000 is presumably for a used boat) and the cost of sails is comparatively astronomical.
A very good mate of mine is the RYA Performance Director for the RYA and even he thinks that Oppi costs are rediculous (and he has two sons racing them).
If I were you I’d have a very long look at either a Bic Open or an RS Terra. The Bic has a whacky racing circuit going now (they have freestyle expression sessions and other fun stuff as part of the regattas) and is doing well in Europe. The Terra is a fantastic boat – looks like a mini Laser, can be rigged in about 1 minute, fast, has a choice of rigs (Race rig and a Pro rig for bigger kids), easy to right, comes up dry after a capsize and of made of polyethylene (same as the Topper) so can be rammed into things without any damage.
We had an Oppi for a couple of years but my girls didn’t really like it. Sold it and bought a used Terra which they love. If they’re not racing they’re all out playing ‘Pirates’ – basically going out with their mates in other Terras, chasing each other, boarding and capsizing each other ….. just having fun.
Its now a recognised RYA class and its popularity is growing rapidly…… there are hundreds of them at Hayling Island. Proper boats, not prams.

To echo what others have said, if you follow the RYA/youth squad/blah route you’ll need a big shiny motorhome to go to regattas in and a selection of powerful binoculars through which to watch your lad racing while tutting, shaking your head and making copious notes ready for the unnecessarily aggressive post-race debrief 🙂

Keep it fun. Having a laugh in cheap knockabout boats FTW.

Still miss this 🙁

Fireball Worlds 2005 by MikeDavis, on Flickr

I’d support most of what has been said here! I spent a weekend recently doing safety cover at a regional topper/oppie meeting, and what I saw opened my eyes to a world I hope my own kids don’t get involved in!

I should say that I started to sail at around 12 and sailed a whole variety of craft from GP14s, Wayfarers and Kestrels (all 2 man dinghies) to Toppers, and Lasers. And have sailed Mirrors, Oppies, a 420 and 505, an Albacore and a Dart (catamaran) on the odd occasion. I’ve never been seriously good and so racing hasn’t been a priority – but is something I would do for a laugh.

Here are some questions:

– do they want to do it seriously through the RYA structured programme. If they do do you want to spend every weekend in the summer travelling round the country. If the answer to these questions is yes then Oppie/Topper (or maybe laser) is possibly the way to go. But I’d encourage you to offer to help out an event first (they always need people) to see how seriously some people take it. Beware there are some serious snobs in this world – if you have an “Oppy Trainer” (which is identical design but built heavier and more robust – so slower) some coaches/officials don’t think you should be allowed to compete even for fun!

– if they/you are more relaxed and just want to club race then what classes are raced locally? it doesn’t need to be singlehanded they could sail with a friend or you/mum could learn easily if you fancied that. Some clubs will run handicap races meaning you can basically turn up with anything and compete. That is good if everyone is in different boats – but if 40% are in toppers, 40% in mirrors and the rest are odds and sods – the kids would possibly be better in a “class” rather than handicap.

– if most of the sailing will not be racing, and racing is just for fun then pick a boat that will work best for them (and if necessary switch club to get racing occasionally). A Tera would be a good choice for a 12 yr old – but the RYA are stuck in the 90s!

As an alternative to racing then you are either looking at “pottering” which some clubs aren’t very good at! or cruising which most clubs are rubbish at! Cruising at 11 will almost certainly need a bigger boat and a parent who knows what they are doing unless you can find a club who do this sort of thing (I was involved with a club that did this – but it was a bit “odd”).

Really though the question is “How good is your son?”. Some clubs will suggest the racing route as soon as they finish RYA level 2, others will be much more relaxed and would only be pushing this if your son was very good or had really exhausted what else they could offer.

To add to the eye-opener that is the Oppi world a friend of mine has just got his daughter out of it (and she’s now racing a Feva which is another excellent boat – leads to a 29er if you want), and he said that that the latest fad if you want your little Jimmy to be in the Oppi squad is to get to get him his own coach!
Just madness. A new Oppi sail is about £500 for a bleedin dacron radial cut rag – I can get a new North Mylar/carbon composite sail for my Finn that will last 6 times as long for £800!

Oh and don’t bother with a Laser yet, your son sounds way too small at the moment. He’d be OK in 5mph with a 4.7 rig but would probably struggle in anything much above 12-15mph.
Plenty of time for him yet. Get something he’s going to have fun in and he’ll progress much quicker.

Sharkbait, can’t really disagree with a word you’ve said there. The little RS’s are awesome boats with great class support. If you want to buy one s/h, get in touch with a guy called Pete Vincent who’s RS chairman and runs a company called West Country boat repairs. He’ll put you on the right path.
I feel a pattern is developing about the RYA squads…!

I don’t have an issue with the RYA squad system….. it’s there for a purpose and it achieves its purpose very very well indeed. It is hard work though and, has already been said, requires at least as much dedication from the parents as from the kids.
No, I do have a bit of an issue with some of the Oppi-parent thing. The list of ‘must-haves’ for some people is pretty rediculous:
Overpriced boat – tick
Motorhome – tick
RIB to follow little precious around (and carry their food, water extra clothes for inbetween races) – tick
Personal sailing coach to also sit in said RIB – tick
It’s very much a ‘haves’ and have-nots’ scene which I don’t like in a sport where the gear can make a difference.
I do feel and hope that the Oppi will start to come under pressure from far more accomplished/suitable/fun boats such as the Tera and the Bic. Where we go for the summer there used to be a number of Oppis on the beach and this year there was one left – the others had all been sold and replaced with Teras 🙂
My mate, the RYA guy, has three boys all of whome are squad members and race Oppis, but when they’re not racing they can’t wait to jump in Teras and just go blasting around.

get him crewing

On the one hand I agree, on the other hand the fast boats tend to have heavy crews and light helms, no point having a heavy helmsnman and a kid out on the trapeeze. He’d be more compettative in an mirror/enterprise/GP14 or similar.

My children had RS Fevas which they loved now moved on to a 29er which is going up for sale next week due to lack of use.

RS Feva’a and Tera’s are the way ahead.

I’ve got a Bic Open for sale if anyone wants one, my girl has hardly used it..