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Chain suck on new 456 build????

25 posts & 19 voices | Started 1 year ago by billyboy | Latest reply from billyboy

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billyboy - Member

I've been riding two 456s with 18" frames for a couple of years with no problems. One has an old Middleburn square taper crank with a 113 bottom bracket, the other has an Xt Hollowtech 2 chainset. I have been using Shimano XT, Middleburn and Blackspire Chain Rings and KMC 9speed chains of high to lower end speck, with SLX, XT or Sram 9 spd 11/34 cassettes.

I've just built a 14" 456 for my girlfriend with a 170 Middleburn crank, 113 bottom bracket, £40 KMC 9spd chain and XT 11/34 cassette. I started out with brand new Middleburn Slickshift Hardcoat rings but they sucked round on the down change straight away. Thus within 400 yards we had a scarred chainstay and stuck chain. No amount of fettling seemed to stop the problem so I swapped out the Chainrings to Blackspire ones and there was no problem for about 300 miles of use (probably less). Matt at middleburn was very decent and swapped these Middleburn rings for a fresh set which I now have on one of my 456s and they are working well.

The last ride we did together she started getting chainsuck again in the middle chainring going onto granny ring. The chain is showing no significant wear on the chainchecker gauge. There are no sticky links or loose plates/rivets, and no deformities on the chainrings. The frame is properly aligned, I checked it using the LBS's frame gauge and the drop outs are straight. I have encouraged a bit of down change discipline ie, keep pedaling but ease off the pressure when changing, and we did a couple of hours of up/down Lakeland Fell riding the next day without incident.

I'm still not very happy that it has been happening at all and I've been looking for solutions online but not really found anything applicable to this case.

I'm thinking.........

1. Swap the bottom bracket for a different length to improve chain line....BUT that looks ok and the same set up works ok on my bikes...and I can't see there's enough room to make it shorter...it'd have to be longer.

2. Swap the chain..... favoured idea....BUT I can't see anything wrong with the old one and it's good quality.

3. Swap the chainrings.........BUT I've already done that and as a long term Blackspire user I reckon they are one of the better shifters out there.

Has anyone had similar experiences and found a solution?

Posted 1 year ago #
brant - Member

I have encouraged a bit of down change discipline ie, keep pedaling but ease off the pressure when changing, and we did a couple of hours of up/down Lakeland Fell riding the next day without incident.

Is the problem that she can't change gear right then?

Posted 1 year ago #
Splat - Member

We had this problem when our kids started riding their on ones - one had a 456, the other an inbred. It stopped after a while and we didn't change anything, so not sure if they improved with their gear changes and didn't just continue peddling when it started to get chain suck - always take lube out and stick some on if needed.

Posted 1 year ago #
b r - Member

I think sometimes you need to 'wear' in chains/rings/cassettes, mud helps.

Posted 1 year ago #
billyboy - Member

It is going to be part of the problem

BUT

She has been doing a lot of bike miles over the years (a few Fred Whittons/ 100 mile per week commuting/ and several serious Lakeland off road events over the years) on a lot cheaper drivetrains and this is the first time her gear changing style has managed to cause this. I rode it with the first set of Middleburn Rings on and I was getting the same thing no matter how carefull I was. I rode it when we started getting the problems with the blackspire and as long as I kept good changing discipline it behaved ok.

I've been riding at least 60 miles per week for over 20 years and I reckon that new and quality systems like this should be able to cope with a bit of abuse without doing this..............even new cheaper systems do cope with abuse on a regular basis without chainwraparound. When they are worn I accept that it will happen, when they are pucker new I would hope/expect that they will behave better.

Posted 1 year ago #
alexpalacefan - Member

I had chainsuck on a 456 with pretty-much new MB Slickshifts. A change to an SLX crankset cured the problem overnight.

A

Posted 1 year ago #
knottie8 - Member

put a load of cable ties around the frame where is sucks.Wont stop it but stops the damage.

Posted 1 year ago #
Splat - Member

The kids never had had problems with chainsuck before they changed bikes either - and they've also ridden a good few bike miles (some under more protest than others). Ones got truativ fire-ex, one an old set of xt cranks on (neither were new when first built). Fine now.

Posted 1 year ago #
tinsy - Member

Is there any chance the chain you got sent was a 10 speed one by accident? would you happen to have a vernier or anything to check the width of it? Or just another chain to pop on before the rings and cassette have any real milage on them..

Posted 1 year ago #
toys19 - Member

If you search anywhere for on one 456 chainsuck you will find this is a common problem.

I think its caused by the fact that the compromise between the chainstays which are designed to take such a fat tyre and the clearance between the chainrings and the frame. My source at SRAM claims that all chains will suck a bit, even brand new, and that is why all big bike manufacturers ensure that there is tons of clearance. Brant appears to have acknowledged this in several threads on here, and you can see his thoughts on this with the bluepig arrangement which has lots of clearance. EDIT Thread here about this

Basically we have had to pay for Brant to work his way up the learning curve when it comes to bike design, but hey a 456 frame is peanuts so I'm not really complaining.

I think it was supposedly cured as the later 456's have a squish in the chainstay to make clearance. Is your 14inch later or older?

Mine is an earlier one, so my solution was 3 x spacers on the drive side BB and none on the non drive side, it does move your chainline right over and I suspect it will have an effect on wear..

Posted 1 year ago #
sv - Member

I have an older Inbred (with chainstay bridge) and its got loads of 'ring clearance! Used to own a newer one that had lots of tyre clearance but bugger all chainring room! Prefer the older model

Posted 1 year ago #
toys19 - Member

Posted 1 year ago #
rockitman - Member

Isn't chainsuck pretty much always caused by a faulty drivetrain. Used to get it really bad on the Yeti until I changed the chain, cassette and granny ring. Have recently changed the granny ring and chain again after a few months use and all is absolutely fine now.

Posted 1 year ago #
Nick - Member

Any frame that doesn't have clearance for the chain to wrap itself back around the rings is going to be susceptable to damage from chain suck, but it can only be the combination of chainring and chain that causes it suck in the first place.

Posted 1 year ago #
D0NK - Member

Oh this again?
Chainsuck is caused by drivechain.
Frame design/clearances decides the amount of havoc/damage said 'suck causes.

The problem is still the drivechain, frames are designed around working parts and even on an e-stay bike chainsuck is gonna ruin your ride.

Posted 1 year ago #
nixon_fiend - Member

I've never ever had chainsuck on any bike ever.. (10 different MTBs over the last 3 years)

I always make sure i have a high quality rear hub that freewheels cleanly though .. i always imagined that cheap hubs not engaging when you back pedal / level pedals cause problems with 'suck

Posted 1 year ago #
D0NK - Member

i always imagined that cheap hubs not engaging when you back pedal / level pedals cause problems with 'suck
Dunno I'd have thought it's down to the chainrings myself, got a brand new drivechain on my heckler and the chain was "sucking" a little on the cook bros granny ring first ride - not impressed.

Posted 1 year ago #
toys19 - Member

Donk - Member

i always imagined that cheap hubs not engaging when you back pedal / level pedals cause problems with 'suck

Dunno I'd have thought it's down to the chainrings myself, got a brand new drivechain on my heckler and the chain was "sucking" a little on the cook bros granny ring first ride - not impressed.

Donk this backs up my experience, I've had chain suck on my 456 with brand new drivetrain (bb,chainrings,chain, cassette, rear derailler). Like I said my source at SRAm said that even new stuff will suck a bit so if there is a clearance issue this can cause problems, either immeadiatly or when the system wears a little bit or a lot depending on the interpaly between how worn it is and how much/little clearance there is.

I put all my worn geartrain on my bullit to eek that last few miles out of it before it really is gash - Bullit is effectively an e-stay frame - doesn't matter how wrecked it is, I never get suck on that. ( I do get broken chains, crap shifting and jumping, that when the drivetrain components finally go in the bin)

Posted 1 year ago #
jonb - Member

My 456 never sucked until I had a worn middle ring. It was fixed replacing sprockets, chain and casette. IME whenever I've had a chainsuck problem is been caused by the drivechain as the problem clears up when I change something.

Posted 1 year ago #
Cheeky Monkey - Member

You can crimp the driveside chain stay yourself to give more clearance if it will help. IIRC Brant "authorised" this when people were talking about problems with the suck / jammage on 456s and Summer Seasons.

Mate has done it on his 456, not snapped yet. I had worst jammage ever on my Summer Season. Admittedly it had fag paper clearance between the 36T and chainstay on a double and bash set up, improved only slightly by an extra HT2 spacer on drive side. Was about to crimp it but then got an Alpine at a steal and sold it on to a mate (told him all about it and scratches were there to see).

No suck or jammage on the Alpine.

NB: I may have taken Brant's name in vain and may have mis-represented what I recall was the advice at the time. If you want to do it and want to be sure I suggest you check with him or On One. It did involve crushing the chainstay with a G clamp

Posted 1 year ago #
gizzardman - Member

I had this recently and it was down to the B Stop setting. I'd left it out far too much when setting up the derailleur so the top jockey wheel was much too far from the cassette. This meant that the chain didn't 'wrap' around the cassette enough, it just fell off the back - if that makes sense

Posted 1 year ago #
Simon - Member

Mate has done it on his 456, not snapped yet. I had worst jammage ever on my Summer Season. Admittedly it had fag paper clearance between the 36T and chainstay on a double and bash set up, improved only slightly by an extra HT2 spacer on drive side. Was about to crimp it but then got an Alpine at a steal and sold it on to a mate (told him all about it and scratches were there to see).

That was me. And Cheeky's right the frame is still going strong.
The new blue 456's had just come out and they had the indent, so I thought I'd add one to my chainstay. I still got chainsuck after that but the chain didn't jam as badly.
Changing the slightly used Truvativ aluminium 24/36 rings for new Shimano steel 22/36 rings sorted it.

Posted 1 year ago #
Inbred456 - Member

I have only ever got chainsuck on my on-one when I have gone from cheap steel rings to alloy ones. I am now back to using deore steel rings (middle and granny) no probs. Its not the frame causing chainsuck, its just easier to damage the older frames when it happens because of the seatstays!

Posted 1 year ago #
gamo - Member

Built one late last year,new frame,chainset,chain and rear cog sucked on the first ride then never since!

Posted 1 year ago #
billyboy - Member

I installed a 115 bottom bracket to replace the 113 on this bike and we've had two rides out on it since, including a Lieth Hill visit where the sandstone normally induces chainsuck at the drop of a hat, and there has been no hint of the problem recurring. She has been actively trying to induce it and there's been nothing.

It tends to make me think that smaller 456 frames need a slightly longer bb than normal.

Posted 1 year ago #

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