I've never encountered a situation that you don't go past a shop or bakery on a long ride for day food (yes I know in the sticks of north Scotland it might happen but it has yet to for me). Same as calling into the pub for an evening pint before setting up camp on the fells.
Herein lies some of the difference - from setting out one morning to finishing the following evening so 36 hrs I might not see a building or another person. let alone a shop
But water is taken from burns without worry.
All good stuff, I'm thinking Bivvy bag, minute sleeping bag, no tent but possibly tarp and tie it to bike / tree, etc, tolls, pants, possibly 1 spare set of clothes (light), tools, a few spares. I ride SS, rigid, so tubes, chain?
But frame bag, bags on handlebars, stuff in a wee bag on rack.
It's all compromise, but a few little jants should tell. I've still got to work out where to ride. I have Good Friday til 3.5.11 off but need to be in Belgium on the last Saturday / Sunday for SSEC. I may look at CTC. I'll have 4/5 days and time to recover.
So in conclusion Rik is nails for finding that lot comfy? 
No headtorch is another thing 
And a book - I cannot go without a book.
I reckon I can get well under 10 kilos mind you. Usually there is two of us and under 20 kilos total with 3 days food - and a couple of kilos could be lost from that so under 10 kilo each.
We've had similar discussions on STW in the past. One persons idea of bivvying/bikepacking is very different from anothers. I think of it as a way of disappearing into the hills for a few days, some consider it as a cheap form of B&B beside a pub or whatever. I've spent enough time in the Scottish hills to consider Riks list a bit too lightweight, especially as it does not cater for any contingencies.
And a book - I cannot go without a book.
* as in study intently for a prolonged period...
One interesting thing on the list (for me) is the full length mat. On the recent STW Welsh winter bivvy trip in December, we got to the overnight bivvy spot and everyone else rolled out full length mats. I rolled out my short Neoair and it looked seriously inadequate. To compensate, I put my shoes at the bottom of the mat and my camelbak below those and that just about kept my feet off the ground. Made it through the night in very clearly freezing conditions (est. minus 5 or so) without cold feet. Bonus in the morning was shoes were damp but not frozen, whereas most other peoples shoes were blocks of ice.
Change your name to Bear Grylls and don't take anything
Matt Lee can travel a long distance with minimal kit and collect food an water along the route
By the looks of the next pic they have no food and water so will be picking it up along the route too
Rik's kit list is perfectly feasible to me, however i like something in between the two pictures.
Ian I think you're being slightly generous when you say minus 5
especially as it does not cater for any contingencies.
Contingencies are a funny thing, do you pack or dont you.
My kit list is based on years of mountaineering in the Alps etc. The French guys out there climb with 15l day sacs, while the Brits (things are changing rapidly but) pack for the contingencies, so go in with big packs. The French will do the route in a day, while because the Brits carry more gear the route takes longer with and increased chance being caught out and the contingencies coming true. Its a risk but a calculated one. Check out Andy Kirkpatricks thoughts for more on this type of modern thinking.
I think mountain biking is a few years behind the modern 'fast and light' thinking in sports such as fell running, adventure racing and mountaineering. And I think people are getting to hung up on whats in or out of my kit list.
Think of it as more of a mindset. Take your average mountain biker riding his/hers 'normal' bike and normal bag. If you could carry just 5lb of extra kit in your bag and an extra 5lb on your bike (which takes mine up to 30lb - still less than a lot of peoples 'normal' mountain bike) and be able to stay out for a night or two. Then that's got to be win, win.
The effect of that increase in weight has very little effect on your riding, and means you can stay out and do more for longer.
Oh..I dont live in Scotland and if i did then maybe my kit would be slightly different, not by much. I don't like the idea of packing for things that 'might' happen.
I live next to the Peak and ride a lot in the Lakes and North Wales. These places if you do a long ride you inevitably go past shops, post offices and pubs - so why not use them for refills. Within an hours ride you can be in away from houses or people and in your own wilderness for the night (so not using as a cheaper alternative to B&B next to a pub - i'd go car camping for that)but you don't have to lug the extra weight for the whole ride. Makes sense to me.
oh... and of course I substitute my 400g sleeping bag for a 800g sleeping bag if its going to be cold. It would be silly not too.
But I do boost my 400g sleeping bags warmth by wearing my primaloft jacket if its slightly colder than expected. Otherwise you'd be carrying 'dead' weight.
There's no way I'd be able to survive on 5kg of stuff but I've no doubt others might.
I'm a bit nesh when it comes to the cold, thus I always have 1.5 kg of sleeping bag with me. For me, if I get cold I stay cold, and it makes me utterly miserable and takes away from whatever else has gone before. The weight penalty is a trade off I'm quite happy to accept for my enjoyment.
I'm sure others have a different cut off between weight versus comfort.
OK, found my old polaris kit list which was last used a good few years ago now. It might make for some interesting comparisons with some of Rik's stuff:
Equipment
Terra Nova Laser Photon - 769
Rab Quantum 200 Sleeping Bag - 507
Balloonbed Mark 2 - 79
Vargo Triad stove - 23
Wind Shield/ Pot warmer - 11
Nalgene bottle w. 60ml Meths - 63
Tibetan Titanium 550ml pan - 67
LMF Spork - 10
Lifesystems foil bag - 88
First Aid Kit - 42
Black Diamond Ion torch - 30
Inov8 Race Pro 20 pack - 309
Motorola F3 Mobile Phone - 70
Spare Clothing (i.e. not necessarily worn when I set out):
Gill Pro Speed Jacket - 278
Montane Featherlite Pants - 128
Bridgedale trail socks - 34
Merino base layer - 178
Helly Hansen briefs - 50
Extremeties Power Dry Beanie - 22
Food
Torq bars (3) - 229
Torq gels (6) - 287
Expedition Foods - Chicken Korma - 187
Expedition Foods - Custard with Berries - 145
Fruit tea bags - 5
Nuun tabs (2) - 10
Expedition Foods - Porridge + Strawberries - 149
Protein Powder - 100
Energy Powder - 128
Total Pack Weight - 3998
Clothing - Normal Conditions (Worn)
Watchstrap compass - 6
Canterbury Base layer - 105
Assos Mille Bib - 208
Scott S/S Jersey - 130
Arm Warmers - 65
Scott Windstopper Gillet - 104
Normal Clothing Total - 618
Clothing - Cold Conditions (Worn)
Watchstrap compass - 6
Merino 200 base layer - 218
Assos Mille Bib - 208
Assos Leg Warmers - 118
Scott L/S Jersey - 239
Scott Windstopper Gillet - 104
Cold Clothing Total - 893
Tools (on Bike)
Finish Line lube - 18
Topeak Micro Rocket CB - 55
Topeak Super Chain Tool - 62
Spare tube (2) - 240
CO2 Canister - 84
Misc spares/ puncture kit - 95
Saddle Pack - 126
Tools/spares total - 680
So there you go. That's enough for 12 hours of riding (80-120 miles) with one overnight stop. The pack is pretty light on day two as most of the food has gone, but I do retain an emergency ration and fuel to make something warm if I need to (mandatory in the rules for Polaris). In terms of comfort, you can survive well enough for one night and be fit enough for the second day, but if I was going out on a solo bikepacking trip I'd take a few more things or spec some different stuff.
I don't think a comparison with Alpine mountaineering is correct.
You might have a peak or route plotted and in the Alps and want to bang it out, you calculate is will take a 48 hrs wait for your window and smash that bitch like football commentator. However I don't think when doing a multi-day route most people are trying to bang out a long route ASAP, it's more like a few day rides interconnected for most.
I do agree that cyclist quite often carry a lot but comparisons with fell running and Alpine mountaineering don't hold unless you are trying to do a long route as quick as possible, in which case cyclists have been going light for years on multi day trips.
I do admire your dedication to lightness but as Druidh says a lot of it is about the area you are riding in. Contingencies happen in Scotland. You can get a frost any month of the year, you can have heavy rain and you will often not be within an hours ride of anywhere.
If you don't like the idea of packing for what might happen you could come badly unstuck.
Thats not to say you need to carry a load of stuff that you never will need - but you do need more stuff than you are carrying for your comfort and safety imo.
Your shelter - how well would it cope with a full on storm?
At the infamous Polaris of Spring 2004 when the wind was gale force and the rain was biblical, I rolled up at the over night camp with my lightweight gear which then comprised of a single hoop goretex bivvy bag. Wet through, I managed to get into my bivvy and sleeping bag and set about trying to blow up the balloons for the balloon bed. My hands were so cold I couldn't knot the balloons properly. Took about half an hour to get that bit of kit sorted, whilst still not able to get properly warm as I lay on the cold ground. When packing my stuff, it had never occurred to me that it may be a problem. I use Thermarest NeoAir's now for this and a few other reasons.
How well does any shelter cope with a full storm?
Like any shelter it's how and where you pitch it is the key. I do own and have used a full 4 season winter mountain tent in full storm conditions.
A single hooped pole tent - terra nova laser etc are 3 season tents. But if you pitch them correctly and in the right place they will cope with a lot, just like my fitted tarp.
Rik, have you got any pics of your tarp erected? Sounds quite interesting
I do but I don't do online pic hosting so can't post.
Just try google for golite lair 1 review. It's an A frame tarp that's enclosed at one end, I've mod'ed it to lose a bit of weight and made a beak for the front if the rain or wind changes direction. I prefer it to my sub kilo tent as I like the fact that you don't feel enclosed and trapped like a bivi bag but can still see the views unlike a zipped up tent.
Ian - email me and I can send you a pic of the set up
IanB - Memberand everyone else rolled out full length mats
Ur hum.....
Interesting question (to me at least) how many of you are using rigid/SS, or in some way “Simplified” Bikes for Bike packing & bivvying?
Does having a simpler bike mean a significantly reduced spares & tools load?
And does having a less “Fancy” bike significantly compromise general progress & trail riding fun when loaded up?
Is there perhaps another balancing point for this i.e. go for a rigid bike but keep the gears, use an Alfine Hub, or go SS but carry a couple of different sized sprockets?
In short is there much benefit to be had in paring the bike down to a bare minimum as well as the kit?
Just curious to see if Riks “Lighter ‘n’ Faster” approach to kit could be applied to the bike as well…
Well I do it on a Ti hardtail - 750mm wide bars, pikes, flow wheels etc for trail fun but loaded up the bike still only weighs ~30lb (rest of the kit in rucksac. A lot of peoples bikes on here weigh more than 30lb without bivi kit.
I use a few different bikes. First one is 26" rigid, geared Inbred, It's built to take some abuse, heavy wheels, tyres, etc. The weight does slow you down but the fact it's rigid doesn't.
I also run a rigid SS 29er with 2 cogs on the back just in case it all gets too much. It's far lighter so feels much quicker. The fact it's SS doesn't seem to slow progress too much until you get well into a big day ... 8+ hours riding.
At the moment I'm putting together a rigid 29er running 2x9. The forks are Salse Enabler with a 135mm spacing, the front wheel is a SS rear so if I have gear troubles I can switch to SS and keep going. It'll be a fair bit lighter than the Inbred with the 'benefit' of gears ... I'm kinda hoping for the best of both worlds. I've never tried an Alfine but I'd be interested to.
IanB - Member
and everyone else rolled out full length mats
at least you were under the Tarp!
@cookeea
Like most things it depends on what I'm doing and what your aims are. Personally I've used my bike as it is set up now (single speed) and I've stuck gears on it for a longer trip carrying more stuff. not that I've got loads of experience but I just alter as needed.
There are some crazy guys in Alaska who do this packrafting / biking trip and they use a really stripped down fixed gear no brakes fat bike because they have t do a lot of carrying.
I rode WRT last year on a rigid singlespeed. The rigid was absolutely fine, the extra weight of kit helps keep the thing on the ground and the trails weren't so rough as to necessitate suspension at either or both ends. I rode 80 miles no problem at all with regard to riding comfort.
The singlespeed question is more difficult to answer. Sure, I didn't need to take spare gear cables, worry about bashing my mech on rock or having to tweak my indexing when it all gets clogged up with mud. However, a small amount of extra weight on the bike made a much larger difference than I expected and some of the uphills were quite a grunt (32:20, 29er).
That said, if I needed to get off and push (which I did), it was fine because the bike didn't weigh so much. I wasn't really in a hurry and you get a chance to soak up some more view (or rain). The lighter 'n' faster approach is fine so far as it goes, and whilst I'm not a slow rider, I like lighter 'n' more enjoyable. I can sit up and spin on the flats, coast the descents and enjoy the view.
Weight of bike an kit all up was something like 34lbs. Add at least 4lbs to that if you want front suspension and gears and another 2lbs for full suspension?
at least you were under the Tarp!
@Steve ... yes, I now class that big tarp as a 5 and 1/3 man
Anyone toured on a cargo bike (eg Surly Big Dummy)?
Well I guess my question was more about removing certain Risks/contingencies and what potentially replaces them? Playing Devils Advocate of course…
My initial thinking was: go SS to have a mechanically simpler, lighter bike with less risk of a Drive train breakdown and possibly fewer spares Vs making slower progress due to that single gear obviously not being optimal for all terrain and gradients…
But then how far do you really go with planning/spares for a geared drive train breakdown? (still s8tannorm; your new build sounds a bit like a case in point – spare SS wheel just in case, quite thorough planning, a fair bit more Mass I’d imagine, but you’ll almost certainly complete any route you attempt)would most people not just take some power links and if they mangle a mech tough it out on a bodged SS setup?
I’ve seen photo’s of various bike-packing setups and the bikes underneath all the kit seem to vary quite a bit; Rigid/SS/29ers right through to 3x9 speed bouncers, obviously the owners of these differing setups have considered the Pro’s and Con’s of the bikes as well as the kit they pack, and the contingencies they can expect/handle given the bike and kit they choose…
I was just wondering how people make these decisions…
It’s all quite intriguing to me (Tragic I know)…
Personally I’d always err towards simplicity but I’m questioning the wisdom of that as a general rule, SS might mean a slower pace and thus an extra day, therefore more requirement for food/kit, negating the benefits of simplicity?
All depends on what & when you are planning to do… Hmmm.
Last year I rode over a 1000 miles off road on my FS Boardman thingy.
I snapped no gears off, broke no cables, never carried a shock pump and didn't have to bleed my brakes mid ride (not once or at all come to think of it).
How un-relaiable are your bikes?
(Saying this, I have just built a bike with easy trail fixing in mind, still 3x9 but a hard tail with cable brakes and coil forks)
Surely the major failure that will stop most people are no different rigid SS or FS full geared.
o Broken / Snapped Pedal
o BB Failure
o Freehub Failure
o Wheel/hub problems
and who carries spares for those.
what tiger said ^^^
Back to frame bags if you get one for a standard size hard tail (for me 18") It will fit most hardtail frames so is swapable...
I bought an 18" pugsley frame bag from eric and it also fits my 18" KM29er, 18" 456 (now sold) also a M500 cannondale and GT hardtail so they are versatile between bikes,
In Scotland i wouldnt camp with less than a 3 season tent,
when it turns wet & windy its baltic even in mid summer as Druidh and TJ say, If your cycling 40 miles offroad daily you need a good sleep,
I wouldnt think of camping with out the midge protection of a hooped Bivvy,small tent or Hennessy hammock In the Highlands, would rather carry a Kilo and live to tell the tale 
You may avoid them on the coast or up high...
epicyclo - MemberAnyone toured on a cargo bike (eg Surly Big Dummy)?
"Freehub Failure" ... me me me
I think the question of SS or gears is difficult to answer. Obviously someone who's used to SS will be able to ride at a faster pace than someone who isn't and is looking to just save weight/complication. If you look at the times for the TD, some of the SS riders aren't that far behind the geared riders.
Tiger ... I assume that 1000 miles was over the course of a week then
what tiger said ^^^
o BB Failure
Square taper BB, steel axle. Not broken or seized one yet...
o Freehub Failure
Hope wheels, can pull freehub out by hand, clean and reassemble.
o Wheel/hub problems
Some spare spokes and a spoke key.
Other problems I have encountered on geared bikes* are:
- chain going over the top into the spokes, either jamming/ bending chain or damaging spokes
- broken dropout and/or rear mech
- a broken gear cable
- dodgy valve on shock/ air fork
I'm also playing devil's advocate to some extent, as I do ride both geared and SS. One thing I do like about the latter is just how quiet it is. No flappy chain on rocky descents or the tick-tick of the chain moving up/down sprockets and rings.
* edit - I should add not necessarily my bike, but people I've been riding with
This topic has been closed to new replies.
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