[Closed] Carry stuff off road touring

depends on how much you need to carry, dry bag on top of rack, dry bag strapped to bars etc

google bikepacking or hang out on the Welsh Ride Thing thread.

I don't find panniers catch on stuff

It depends how rough it is, I've used both a trailer and panniers, if it's rough I prefer panniers, I didn't find they caught on things. I was using blackburn rack on the back and old man mountain on the front. Will post some pictures later.
Nick

I prefer panniers. Don't find they catch too much, although they upset the balance of the bike a bit.

narrow low sitting rucksack for offroad touring.
carrying a bare minimum of stuff.
me and pals do a week offroad tour every september following this approach.

Panniers are good (not used trailers or frame bags though).

You do have to be aware of them going through restrictions but you get used to it. Fine for off-road sections of CTC, assuming thye have a good mount. Also useful for loads of other stuff as well.

As mentioned above, here is a link to some photos of my setups.
[url= http://picasaweb.google.com/nickblades2000/Random ]link to photos[/url]

Bar Bag plus Carradice SQR Trax will give you approx 20-25l neat up out of the way..

Having tried both paniers and a bob trailer, I'm a convert to trailers the bike feels nicer to ride.

Thanks guys.I'm hoping to take very little. I can't carry much weight on my back I get really bad back ache. Drybag strapped to rack sounds possible.

Any pics. How much can be carried without upsetting the handling. We're talking proper off road............

Any additional weight WILL affect the handling of the bike. At the end of the day, it's always a compromise. I do think that using a rucksack keeps the bike handling better, but can be more tiring for you (and possibly painful).

I could easily razz it around a trail centre with this set up even with 3 days food! [url= http://coastkid.blogspot.com/search/label/bike%20packing ]Bikepacking set up[/url]
But frame bags arnt cheap (but a great investment) and you cant shoulder the bike for Highland mad stuff...
apart from that this set up for me is ideal and all in probably cost about £400 which has already paid for itself 😮

CK, That's really good. I'll hopefully be buying food en route. But I like the front end and bike bag. Who makes the frame bags?

Heres the new kid on the block for frame bags, I've got an early prototype which I can't recommend highly enough,

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-2011-welsh-ride-thing-is-go?replies=80#post-2177254

flashes - Member

Any pics. How much can be carried without upsetting the handling. We're talking proper off road...........

druidh - Member

Any additional weight WILL affect the handling of the bike. At the end of the day, it's always a compromise. I do think that using a rucksack keeps the bike handling better, but can be more tiring for you (and possibly painful).

The conclusion I have come is that you do one or the other. If you want to carry camping gear then forget having fun on the singletrack. Carry enough kit so the camping is comfortable then the bike riding is spoilt. Strip your camping kit to the minimum and the cycling is still compromised (if not so much) but the camping is uncomfortable. So nowadays I stick to the easier offroad stuff if I want to camp

It helps to distribute the weight around the bike, frame bags, tent poles along frame tubes - that sort of thing. I agree with druidh about rucksacks tho - I find it very tiring and painful to ride with one.

You can still manage to ride rough singletrack with luggage - it requires a different technique - you cannot move the bike around underneath you so easily and you need to try to maintain momentum.

A lot of folk swear by trailers and they don't upset the handling of the bike as much - but you do have a good few additional kilos to get up0 hills and when the hikabike starts they can be a real pain.

You takes your choice you make your compromises. For me I have simply given up attempting to take camping gear down the rough singletrack. Its simply spoilt.

I've got an early prototype which I can't recommend highly enough

Thanks 😀
We'll have some pics of our newest creations fairly soon, and we've made a number of refinements to early prototypes too

In general though, frame bags make a lot of sense for carrying heavier items closest to the centre of gravity of the bike. This has the least effect on how the bike feels and allows for capable handling on technical stuff. We've tested our stuff on some very technical and rocky terrain in Wales over the winter and they've been fine.

The space under the handlebar is another good place to put bulky items like, for instance a sleeping bag. We're developing a harness system that allows quick and secure attachment for this kind of thing with minimal interference with the bike. This method is also more compatible with suspension forks, which front panniers obviously aren't.

Good stuff wildcat - but you can put front panniers on suspension forks - tubus swing rack for example.

However if you have so much stuff that you need front panniers then your offroading will be compromised greatly.

TJ is right - if you are riding with camping kit then you've got to change your expectations. You can still ride singletrack and steep stuff and have a great time of course.

I've only off toured with panniers. I think I quite like having some weight up front. Am aiming for some lightweight bivvi trips with less stuff & strapped to bars & rack top etc.

Where does one get those frame packs?..I wasn't convinced until I saw how wide they are & how much can go in them. I take it they will be bespoke and not swappable between different frames?

cynic-al - you can email me if you want to discuss some options?

They are bespoke so I'd recommend one for a frame you were planning on keeping for a good while. However, if you had two similar sized or proportioned frames, there is a degree of interchangeability. We managed to fit bag for a medium 29er frame into the frame of a medium 26" bike, as the 26" bike was slightly smaller. The straps were sufficient to pull it tight enough. Wouldn't work as well the other way around though.

@TJ - yes, had forgotten about the Tubus swing rack, though the panniers ride higher and affect the handling a bit more than low riding panniers on a rigid fork would. But either way, I quite a agree that select kit to the comfort level you require, work out suitable method to attach to bike and select trails accordingly.

There are these guys too but i've never seen them in stock for over a year now and they cost £91 each PLUS postage from NZ

http://www.freeload.co.nz/

select kit to the comfort level you require, work out suitable method to attach to bike and select trails accordingly.

That puts it very nicely

i'm a real believer in loading the front first. i have done some riding with only a drybag on the front which worked really well.

I've ridden with only a drybag (on a rack) out back and it means that the front wants to lift on the climbs and it feels like the front doesn't have much traction on the downhills.

balancing would be best ( small amount at both ends)

The conclusion I have come is that you do one or the other. If you want to carry camping gear then forget having fun on the singletrack. Carry enough kit so the camping is comfortable then the bike riding is spoilt. Strip your camping kit to the minimum and the cycling is still compromised (if not so much) but the camping is uncomfortable. So nowadays I stick to the easier offroad stuff if I want to camp

I’m sorry I don’t believe that at all, with careful selection of the right lightweight kit, and the correct spread of weight over the rider and bike (I currently use a frame bag and lightweight OMM rucsack). Then you can attack and enjoy the trails as much as you can without the kit on a ‘normal’ ride.

I have all my kit down to a weight of around ~5kg this includes, everything to sleep, shelter, eat (hot cooked food) drink and relax.
It would ruin the riding experience for me if I could not ride the trails fast and include all the usual drops and technical riding.

In the Peak camping that includes trails like the Beast, Potato Alley and Jacobs Ladder ridden at the same speed as I would on a normal ride.

I have used my new Revelate Designs seat pack yet but this can only help in the even distribution of weight between rider and bike.

I have all my kit down to a weight of around ~5kg this includes, everything to sleep, shelter, eat (hot cooked food) drink and relax.

5 kg? Even if you are close to that then the camping will not be comfy

Lets hear the list of equipment and weights. Don't forget the weight of the bags, a full set of waterproofs, water etc

I have done this a lot. Thats my opinion from many trips camping.

Very comfy Infact that includes whiskey and a camping chair.

Will sort list soon but it's in excel so will have to convert

Bag
Omm Jirisica – 600g
Frame Bag – 100g

Tarp (loads of room for 1 and kit and storm worthy)
GoLite Lair 1 – 300g
Easton Carbon FX Poles (118/78cm) + Brace Pole – 90g
Alpkit Ti Pegs (10x 6g) - 60g
Ground Sheet -90g

Cooking
Snow peak ti stove – 80g
Snow peak ti pot (foil lid) – 110g
Pour and Go Food Bag - 5
Foldable Spork – 16g
100g 40/60 Butane/Propane – 200g
Dried fruits/nuts/super noodles/cup a soup – 500g
Chilli/garlic oil/ salt/pepper/tea/milk – 100g
Hipflask (lexan) - Nice strong Whiskey – 350g
Water + Bag - 1l water + Platiplus flexible bag – 1025g

Sleeping
Pacific Outdoors Ether Elite 6 - full length mat – 400g
Rab Quantum Top – 400g
Silk Liner – 100g
Big Agnes Cyclone Chair Kit – 165g

Clothing
Waterproof - Omm Cypher Event Smock – 240g
Insulation - Rab Xenon – 300g
Merino Baselayer – 100g
Silk Leggings – 100g
Buff – 10g
Merino Beanie – 60g

Other
Bog Paper – 5g
Chewing gum – 5g

That little lot comes to 5.5kg and includes the weight of the bags your carrying it in too.
If I want to take a 1 man tent add another 400g.
2-3 Days - just add a spare pair of lycra shorts, restock food at a shop

That makes interesting reading Rik! I'd definitely want a tent to get away from the beasties, and the food you're carrying might stretch the definition of 'comfortable' a bit (where's the chocolate, pouch of tobacco, book and personal stereo?). Does that food really cover three days of 50-60k riding and pushing offroad? And if you're being honest, surely you need to include all your bike tools in that list too, and if its a serious trip, spare pads/length of chain/derailleur hanger.

I have enjoyed myself immensely riding trails with lots of camping gear on/and or a trailer but as already mentioned, your expectations/riding style have to change.

what do you use for a ground sheet rik?

1L of water for a day would be optimistic for me at best. You'll need 300ml for the super noodles too 🙂

I prefer a proper tent too, but everyones definition of 'comfy' is different.. can't get a hot tub on the rack!

Impressive Rik but not much food there, looks a bit light for even one days worth. I know even at only 5 kg that would effect my riding, although obviously less than 10 kg, but to have no effect is impossible.

Interesting list that.

Quantum top bag isn't everyone's idea of a sleeping bag though 😉
Buff's also weigh more than 10g. I've weighed one 😳

I don't have the list to hand, but my justenoughforthirtysixhours kit list for Polaris was around 4kg before tools and water, both of which went on the bike. That included a tent ~ 1kg, and I remember all my food was also 1kg, so Rik you don't each much!

Anyway, my conclusion ultimately that there was too much discomfort for general use but it was tolerable for a race/event where less weight roughly translated to more speed.

That list covers the kit needed to live outdoors over night. So tools would be on top.
That food doesnt get me through 50-70km of riding your right, that is an evening meal and a brew in the morning. I've never encountered a situation that you don't go past a shop or bakery on a long ride for day food (yes I know in the sticks of north Scotland it might happen but it has yet to for me). Same as calling into the pub for an evening pint before setting up camp on the fells.

Ground sheet is a home made bathtub one made from spinaker. I hate bivi bags so the fitted tarp is bigger and more comfortable.

Lightweight can be comfortable, just a different comfortable to car camping. It is about the riding and camping for me.

1l of water is again not for a day, refilled plenty of times from pubs, campsites, shops etc. People are friendly if you ask. Just make sure I have 1l with me at the end of the day.

Ta rik

Water can be topped up where I ride no problems - I actually carry only 1/2 a litre as I know I can get more

No sleeping bag or have I missed it? No tools? No waterproofs? no maps? No phone? No first aid kit? 500 g of food?

Its an impressive list but no way comes anywhere near comfy to me. What do you do when it rains? Is that enough for down to sub zero( I have had frost just about every month camping )

I've never encountered a situation that you don't go past a shop or bakery on a long ride for day food (yes I know in the sticks of north Scotland it might happen but it has yet to for me). Same as calling into the pub for an evening pint before setting up camp on the fells.

Herein lies some of the difference - from setting out one morning to finishing the following evening so 36 hrs I might not see a building or another person. let alone a shop

But water is taken from burns without worry.

All good stuff, I'm thinking Bivvy bag, minute sleeping bag, no tent but possibly tarp and tie it to bike / tree, etc, tolls, pants, possibly 1 spare set of clothes (light), tools, a few spares. I ride SS, rigid, so tubes, chain?
But frame bag, bags on handlebars, stuff in a wee bag on rack.

It's all compromise, but a few little jants should tell. I've still got to work out where to ride. I have Good Friday til 3.5.11 off but need to be in Belgium on the last Saturday / Sunday for SSEC. I may look at CTC. I'll have 4/5 days and time to recover.

So in conclusion Rik is nails for finding that lot comfy? 😀 No headtorch is another thing 🙂 And a book - I cannot go without a book.

I reckon I can get well under 10 kilos mind you. Usually there is two of us and under 20 kilos total with 3 days food - and a couple of kilos could be lost from that so under 10 kilo each.

We've had similar discussions on STW in the past. One persons idea of bivvying/bikepacking is very different from anothers. I think of it as a way of disappearing into the hills for a few days, some consider it as a cheap form of B&B beside a pub or whatever. I've spent enough time in the Scottish hills to consider Riks list a bit [i]too[/i] lightweight, especially as it does not cater for any contingencies.

And a book - I cannot go without a book.

* as in study intently for a prolonged period...

One interesting thing on the list (for me) is the full length mat. On the recent STW Welsh winter bivvy trip in December, we got to the overnight bivvy spot and everyone else rolled out full length mats. I rolled out my short Neoair and it looked seriously inadequate. To compensate, I put my shoes at the bottom of the mat and my camelbak below those and that just about kept my feet off the ground. Made it through the night in very clearly freezing conditions (est. minus 5 or so) without cold feet. Bonus in the morning was shoes were damp but not frozen, whereas most other peoples shoes were blocks of ice.

Change your name to Bear Grylls and don't take anything

Matt Lee can travel a long distance with minimal kit and collect food an water along the route
[img] [/img]
By the looks of the next pic they have no food and water so will be picking it up along the route too
[img] [/img]
Rik's kit list is perfectly feasible to me, however i like something in between the two pictures.

Ian I think you're being slightly generous when you say minus 5 😀

especially as it does not cater for any contingencies.

Contingencies are a funny thing, do you pack or dont you.

My kit list is based on years of mountaineering in the Alps etc. The French guys out there climb with 15l day sacs, while the Brits (things are changing rapidly but) pack for the contingencies, so go in with big packs. The French will do the route in a day, while because the Brits carry more gear the route takes longer with and increased chance being caught out and the contingencies coming true. Its a risk but a calculated one. Check out Andy Kirkpatricks thoughts for more on this type of modern thinking.

I think mountain biking is a few years behind the modern 'fast and light' thinking in sports such as fell running, adventure racing and mountaineering. And I think people are getting to hung up on whats in or out of my kit list.

Think of it as more of a mindset. Take your average mountain biker riding his/hers 'normal' bike and normal bag. If you could carry just 5lb of extra kit in your bag and an extra 5lb on your bike (which takes mine up to 30lb - still less than a lot of peoples 'normal' mountain bike) and be able to stay out for a night or two. Then that's got to be win, win.

The effect of that increase in weight has very little effect on your riding, and means you can stay out and do more for longer.

Oh..I dont live in Scotland and if i did then maybe my kit would be slightly different, not by much. I don't like the idea of packing for things that 'might' happen.

I live next to the Peak and ride a lot in the Lakes and North Wales. These places if you do a long ride you inevitably go past shops, post offices and pubs - so why not use them for refills. Within an hours ride you can be in away from houses or people and in your own wilderness for the night (so not using as a cheaper alternative to B&B next to a pub - i'd go car camping for that)but you don't have to lug the extra weight for the whole ride. Makes sense to me.

oh... and of course I substitute my 400g sleeping bag for a 800g sleeping bag if its going to be cold. It would be silly not too.

But I do boost my 400g sleeping bags warmth by wearing my primaloft jacket if its slightly colder than expected. Otherwise you'd be carrying 'dead' weight.