- This topic has 305 replies, 96 voices, and was last updated 6 years ago by jamj1974.
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Carillion
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2tyredFull Member
Focusing on the directors is pointless.
How about – I don’t know, someone at random – George Osborne?
In 2014, as chancellor, he proudly trumpeted the fact Carillion were the first beneficiaries of a scheme called the Direct Lending Facility, the Cameron government providing a £34 million loan to help secure a contract in Dubai, taking full credit for that.
Fast forward to last week – a US investment fund called BlackRock joins in with a frenzied shorting of the Carillion share price, effectively hammering the coffin shut. BlackRock has a guy called George Osborne on its payroll as an adviser (£650k per annum for a one day week, apparently).
Forward again to yesterday – the Evening Standard’s editorial on the matter places the blame for the demise of Carillion firmly at the feet of civil servants, as apparently they decide who government contracts are awarded to, not ministers. Who’s the editor of the Evening Standard? I forget.
This is little more than a game to the Tory party leadership, one in which they can win but not lose, in any meaningful way.
cranberryFree MemberJeremy needed to have it explained to him that the government are customers of Carillion.
“why aren’t the government running Carillion ?”
He really is as thick as mince.
matt_outandaboutFull MemberJeremy needed to have it explained to him that the government are customers of Carillion.
Is that not the wrong way around? Govt is subbing out contracts to build roads or rail, run our public services etc…
dissonanceFull MemberHe really is as thick as mince.
Is that an actual quote. Can you provide the transcript since the reports dont quite put it that way.
kimbersFull MemberJeremy needed to have it explained to him that the government are customers of Carillion.
“why aren’t the government running Carillion ?”
He really is as thick as mince.
yeah who’d expect the government to be running government infrastructure projects like building hospitals, roads, running prisons, etc etc etc
as for thick as mince……. thatd be like paying £3 to join labour & voting for corbyn because itd mean no one will vote for them- Id suggest you look at cranberrys posts at the start of the corbyn megathread 😆
dragonFree MemberFrom the Guardian, Former Carillion chief executive Richard Howson has just resigned as a non-executive director at oilfield services company John Wood Group. so it’s not quite the gravy train people on the last page made out.
cranberryFree Memberthatd be like paying £3 to join labour & voting for corbyn because itd mean no one will vote for them- Id suggest you look at cranberrys posts at the start of the corbyn megathread
That £3 has brought me a lot of laughs and not a little consternation at the stupidity of the nation’s youth.
cranberryFree Memberthen again, there is hope:
“After his success in galvanising support last summer, Mr Corbyn enjoyed a plus-20 popularity rating in Scotland only three months ago. The latest YouGov poll for The Times has found this has crashed to minus 3, a drop of 23 points since October.”
ransosFree Memberthen again, there is hope:
For the middle aged who wish to pull up the drawbridge, yes.
deadlydarcyFree MemberThat £3 has brought me a lot of laughs and not a little consternation at the stupidity of the nation’s youth.
Oh man, that’s weak. 😆
projectFree MemberSKANSA, are already planning to reduce their head count, eg sacking staff 3000 jobs to go.
Quite a lot of smaller suppliers are now refusing to supply any carrilion based firm, and Interserve appear to have something going on.
Its going to be a very traumatic time for the construction world in the uk and their suppliers, one trade mag is advising supliers not to break into sites to seize their products, tools, equipment back, even if its not been paid for and probably never will
wigglesFree Memberso it’s not quite the gravy train people on the last page made out.
Yeah im sure he is down the foodbank as we speak
binnersFull MemberIt’s not a gravy train Dragon?
Really?
Which bit proves it’s not a gravy train then?
1) still being paid a £660,000 salary for over a year by the company who’s bankruptcy you presided over?
2) changing the pay structure of the company you were about to bankrupt, so that you get to keep the enormous bonus’s paid to you while you were bankrupting it
3) jumping before you’re pushed from your next carriage on the gravy train because you’re last monumental multi-billion-pound-spunking **** up, which is now bankrupting small businesses all over the country, is now attracting some understandablely adverse publicity?
If you can just run through that for me. Extra points for pointing out his public-spirited dedication to industry and the British economy, and maybe his work for blind orphans, or donkey sanctuaries, or whatever….
At least he was spared the humiliation of having to give his knighthood back, eh?
He mustn’t have donated enough to party funds yet
deadlydarcyFree MemberStop press. Did I hear that bonuses have been stopped?
Oh my god! Won’t someone think of their children? I’m going to set up a trolley alongside the foodbank one in my local Sainsbury’s – I bet it fills up in no time. Non-perishables only folks please.
EDIT: Where’s his nearest Cash Converters – looks like that watch might be going cheap. 😀
matt_outandaboutFull Memberjumping before you’re pushed
I bet Wood Group more than clearly told him to leave..
binnersFull MemberWonder what his ‘compensation package’ is?
Another years six figure salary plus bonuses?
oldblokeFree Member1) still being paid a £660,000 salary for over a year by the company who’s bankruptcy you presided over?
This won’t happen. Insolvency service will eventually (if they haven’t yet done so) tell people the rules. Anything still o/s will be treated like other employees (at best).
More likely directors will get not a lot and be reminded their obligations include working with the Official Receiver to recover assets etc – should be able to get them to do a fair bit of work for nothing. Used to do that in the days I worked in Insolvency / restructuring.
binnersFull MemberDefine ‘not a lot’?
Two directors who jumped ship when the profit warning was issued last July – who were on salaries of 660,000 and 425,000 respectively – have continued to be paid that salary up to this point, and would have been contractually obliged to up to October, and may still might! I’ll believe any ‘sanctions’ when I see ‘em! Not when some Tory says it’s going to happen
Wish I could scrape by on ‘not a lot’
But it’s definitely not a gravy train, right?
frankconwayFull MemberNo sympathy for howson and other board directors.
I’ve already posted that I worked for Carillion as an interim and my comments are a few pages back
BUT
Let’s not lose sight of what really caused their demise – c£200million witheld payment/bad debt in quatar, delayed groudworks on aberdeen bypass – fixed price jv with substantial delay penalties, sandwell & liverpool hospitals – some of the problems could/should have been forseen, others not.
In my experience their scheme planning was robust but there was an increasing drive to minimise risk allowances leading to lower bid prices.
As for pension deficit – how few ftse100 companies are running a pension surplus?
I get it that it’s a great opportunity to vent about……politicos, banks, big biz, the little guy taking tbe hit – and that’s good but let’s not make carillion whipping bots for a multiplicity of issues.binnersFull MemberAnyone going to put their house on their not being some form of government/taxpayer bail-out then?
They’ll try everything for it not to referred to in those termst, of course, but you can see it coming a mile off!
Too big to fail
…. again 🙄
frankconwayFull MemberBinners – it’s likely that any fines imposed by the insolvency service will significantly outweigh the salaries/bonuses which you’re frothing about.
Why not convert your animosity to carillion directors into support for the subbies who were reliant on carillion?
I worked with and knew some of them.frankconwayFull MemberEx finance director called in the auditors due to his concern.
Will post more details later; on a train with intermittent connectivity at present.dissonanceFull Memberit’s likely that any fines imposed by the insolvency service will significantly outweigh the salaries/bonuses which you’re frothing about.
Can you give some examples of when this has happened?
binnersFull MemberYeah, right.
Always happens that, doesn’t it?
I remember watching Fred Goodwin weeping as it was all taken away from him, and he was publicly brought to justice for his reckless arrogance, and made to realise the consequences of his actions
Oh…. no….. hang on a minute…..
dudeofdoomFull MemberIt looks like Interserve may be in a spot of bother as well.
Yep 🙁
Also heard that on the grapevine.
binnersFull MemberWhen a company that size goes down, owing that much money, it’s like domino toppling. Mixed with Russian Roulette.
It’s just a question of who’s next. Because if you think this is the end of it, you’re either hopelessly naive or just thick.
All this has done is flicked the first domino
cchris2louFull MemberYep, and it is a big domino.
The ripple effects are going to be huge.
oldblokeFree Membernot a bankruptcy
it’s a liquidation
totally different Presume that’s a response to my reference to the Official receiver. It is a liquidation, but Official Receiver was appointed as EY etc wouldn’t touch it.
Define ‘not a lot’
Same as other employees on redundancy and unpaid salaries.
Not when some Tory says it’s going to happen
Not sure who you’re referring to. I used to do insolvency work. I don’t do political parties. But BBC reported the stop on pay an hour ago.
kimbersFull MemberIt’s not all poor foresight by directors, lack of oversight by government & austerity destroying profit margins
There are other factors
cranberryFree MemberSo the government weren’t being bad naughty tories for supporting Carillion, but they were being bad for not giving them enough contracts.
Who knew ?
And it is not like a large organisation to go ahead and blamestorm who else could be responsible for the things that just happened to happen.
gonefishinFree Memberdelayed groudworks on aberdeen bypass
Yeah, who knew it tends to get quite cold in winter in the NE of Scotland.
That reads a little harsh but if they didn’t assess the risk properly then the fault lies squarely with them.
SandwichFull MemberLet’s not lose sight of what really caused their demise –
c£200million witheld payment/bad debt in quatar, delayed groudworks on aberdeen bypass – fixed price jv with substantial delay penalties, sandwell & liverpool hospitals – some of the problems could/should have been forseen, others not.
In my experience their scheme planning was robust but there was an increasing drive to minimise risk allowances leading to lower bid prices.board incompetence with risk management seems to cover the strikeout.
dragonFree MemberI thought it was flooding rather than cold that stopped the bypass.
As Wood group are a Aberdeen based company maybe Richard Howson could have stopped by the bypass to sort things out while visiting for Wood goup board meetings.
athgrayFree MemberYeah, who knew it tends to get quite cold in winter in the NE of Scotland.
That reads a little harsh but if they didn’t assess the risk properly then the fault lies squarely with them.
I dont know the specifics of delays in Aberdeen, but this is really hard for a contractor. Having worked tendering for a firm specialising in groundworks, you are trying to determine site material I.e peat, soil, clay, rock often from poor quality geological drilling logs and trial pit data. It is not always easy to determine whether ground conditions will allow you to work on poorer weather days. The number of company’s on tender lists seems to be ever increasing, and work is scarce (particularly on renewables projects with lack of wind farm subsidies). If you guess for your bill of quants that you can’t work 15 days in winter, another company will reckon on 10 days. The client it seems holds most of the cards at the minute. I did hear on the radio that most civil engineering projects in the UK are priced to achieve 3% profit. That is high risk for low reward.
epicycloFull Membercranberry – Member
“How many is a Carillion?”Much much less than we all thought it was… 🙂
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