Carillion

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  • Carillion
  • Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Is it just me, or does this have the making of a crisis that could have far reaching consequences? The banks are of course calling for a bailout. Socialism for the rich, and the magic money tree are not dead it seems. The tories will be stuck. Allow it to collapse and it’ll be chaos, prop it up and face serious questions of why they awarded billions in public contracts to them and where the money is coming from.

    Interestingly my work are tenants of Carillion. Wonder if we’ll be locked out?

    Uncle Vince clear this morning. Let the shareholders and creditors take the hit. Will be interesting to see what our supposedly extreme government ends up doing.

    simonloco
    Member

    Fully with Mr Cable on this one.

    kerley
    Member

    Yep, Mr Cable made it clear (as he often seems to)

    It’s rubbish for the workers who will be impacted if it closes but I agree that it shouldn’t be propped up by the state.

    The money should be spent on helping the staff get into other jobs quickly.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Let the shareholders and creditors take the hit.

    Indeed. I’d support efforts to protect the jobs and maintain delivery of services, but only if creditors and shareholders don’t benefit. Obviously the banks want the govt to to bail them out, not Carillion. Hardly a surprise given their history.

    johndoh
    Member

    Agree – Vince Cable has it spot on.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Don’t disagree with lettering shareholders take the hit – that’s part of the risk they take. Employees is a different matter – whoever takes the work should follow TUPE as if it was a contract demobilisation/mobilisation IMHO.

    ninfan
    Member

    the making of a crisis that could have far reaching consequences

    I knew that things went downhill for them after Kayleigh, but I hadn’t realised they had got this bad.

    Alpha1653
    Member

    I have never, EVER had to deal with a worse company than Carillion. They manage military housing and have an absolutely shocking reputation across the board. Personally, I’m fighting (yet again) for refunds due from their poor administration. Currrently they owe me over £500 for having overcharged me that amount in December for my accommodation yet are refusing to give back my money until the end of the month. I have had to fight them constantly for the last 2 years. Bastards.

    It’s harsh for the workers but public money shouldn’t be used to prop up an absolute shambles of an organisation.

    ninfan
    Member

    In all seriousness, bailing out/nationalisation might be a good solution if it allowed Govt to then terminate the PFI deals.

    Premier Icon scaredypants
    Subscriber

    while the Cabinet Office on Friday hosted emergency talks with the Pensions Regulator about the company’s 28,000-member pension scheme, which has a £580m deficit

    That, there should be a criminal offence with imprisonment of the entire **** board as a genuine option

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    There would have to be some kind of bailout if we want PFI hospitals and schools to keep running.

    dovebiker
    Member

    The pension deficit is a legacy of umpteen mergers, poor investment returns and prior legislation that allowed companies to go on ‘holiday’ from paying their contribution into pension schemes. Successive mal-administration by Governments has meant that the shares of many infrastructure companies are considered ‘junk’ by investors – who would want to put you money into contracts with single digit returns? Whilst the shareholders will take the hit, who will take on basket cases like the MOD housing contract? The Government is going to have to shake their magic money tree pretty hard to attract other bidders for contracts, so in the mean time the maintenace of public facilities like hospitals, schools will get worse. I’m due to go to a dinner this week sponsored by Carillion, guess I’ll be going hungry?

    craigxxl
    Member

    I have had dealings with several companies who’ve had Carillion as clients. They’ve all gone through the same problem of late payments, invoices disputed and eventually taking legal action against them only to come out of it making a loss. Two companies didn’t survive their dealings with them all the others struggled to get through.
    About time the tables where turned on Carillion and see if they survive without a bailout.

    Premier Icon Speshpaul
    Subscriber

    On a individual level its going to be hard for some folk, but most of the work will still have to be done….

    On a corporate level **** em, biggest bag of **** I’ve ever come across.

    Premier Icon Trailrider Jim
    Subscriber

    I knew that things went downhill for them after Kayleigh, but I hadn’t realised they had got this bad.

    😀

    ernie
    Member

    I’m nervous on this one. Their rail division (certainly the team based near Paddington) are good, very good. It Carillion go into administration I wonder what impact it will have on infrastructure schemes I.e. crossrail where key deliveries approach and there are interdependent milestones.

    Premier Icon stumpyjon
    Subscriber

    A lot of the actual construction work they are involved with is actually done by subcontractors. They could carry on with a different company. The whole sector seems to be riddled with these rubbish management companies abusing the subbies and supply chain to make a profit. They are certainly not too big to fail.

    Rockape63
    Member

    I’m not sure how the Shareholders are supposed to take the hit as Vince suggests? Surely if the company goes into admin, they’ll have lost all their money anyway! What am I missing?

    mickmcd
    Member

    why don’t they see if they can raise funding from their wealthy directors and shareholders….oh wait a minute who would be stupid enough to put their own money in

    mefty
    Member

    There would have to be some kind of bailout if we want PFI hospitals and schools to keep running.

    This doesn’t follow at all, leases will continue to exist if they go bust and it should be possible to still service them as the people haven’t disappeared.

    mickmcd
    Member

    What am I missing

    no more bunga bunga parties for them and their mates at westminster

    oldschool
    Member

    The whole sector seems to be riddled with these rubbish management companies abusing the subbies and supply chain to make a profit.

    It’s not just Carillion, the majority of ‘big builders’ Kier, Balfour, Bovis, Wates are management companies and sub every aspect. They sub every aspect they can from the security cabin as they arrive on site, to the final clean as they leave.
    Screwing subbys is the norm and par for the course, they work to such low margins that not paying applications and valuing works done low, appears to be a bonified business method.

    T1000
    Member

    Mefty +1

    It’s likely Carillion have sold most of the equity that they had in any PFI deal, most likely that what remains are the hard and soft FM contracts, the administrators would self off various divisions as going concerns…. so the impact on Jo public will be minimal.

    The employees are likely to suffer from reduced pensions + loss of any share save schemes.

    The construction projects are likely to be more significantly impacted, should the construction divisions fail to find buyers the the projects concerned will be blighted by having to change main contractor.

    bikebouy
    Member

    teamhurtmore – Member
    Uncle Vince clear this morning. Let the shareholders and creditors take the hit. Will be interesting to see what our supposedly extreme government ends up doing.

    Mucho supporto of this’o..

    wrightyson
    Member

    Over bloated over charging company. Know several people who have worked for them and the staffing levels from what they say are just ridiculous. One quick example, 14 men to oversee/witness/record/carry out some earth testing on a small transformer base a mate engineered on. Just a joke!

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    This doesn’t follow at all, leases will continue to exist if they go bust and it should be possible to still service them as the people haven’t disappeared.

    POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
    I’m sure they’ll do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

    wiganer
    Member

    Let em go bump, their contracts will be swallowed up by their competitors, employees will TUPE across and work will still get done. A few board members and middle management will suffer, as will the shareholders, but that’s the risk, the average bloke won’t notice a jot of difference.

    andyl
    Member

    Was listening to this earlier.

    They said something like £900 million debts and £600 million in pension deficit.

    +1 for agreeing with VC, I bet the shareholders have been soaking up the dividends over the years and they just voted to not help out fully expecting the government to step in I bet and VC has just called their bluff. Lets see what they do now the shares they have tanked over the last year (-90%!!!!)

    Government needs to rescue it’s projects it has with them and protect the country from them. Then lets see what happens and obviously make sure the workers are looked after first (yeah right!!!!).

    I am guessing they are going to freeze the shares and they should freeze all the assets of the board. I bet they have nice fat bank accounts and nice second homes abroad.

    aP
    Member

    There’s a lot of fairly tedious schadenfreude on this thread. A sad demise of a once proud Wolverhampton company.

    mefty
    Member

    I’m sure they’ll do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

    Of course they will need to be paid, but the obligation to make payments to Carillion will disappear, all these structures were designed to survive the bankruptcy of the sponsor as banks don’t like having risk on contractors.

    mefty
    Member

    That should have read banks/users not just banks.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Private sector efficiency my Aunt Fanny. I hope Jam is reading this.

    I reckon the government should bail them out – by buying the lot. They did it with Network Rail and Lloyds, why not this time? Renationalise.

    Klunk
    Member

    free market capitalism = Privatizing profits and socializing losses

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    course they will need to be paid, but the obligation to make payments to Carillion will disappear, all these structures were designed to survive the bankruptcy of the sponsor as banks don’t like having risk on contractors.

    I’m not saying that Carillion should be saved. I am saying that maintenance of vital infrastructure will require significant public expenditure. I spent some time last week on a Carillion PFI contract and unpicking it is far from easy.

    project
    Member

    Chap i was talking to last week had bought a carillion van at auction, he said he had loads of problems with it, cost him a lot for repairs, maybe repairs and maintenance to their fleet is not a high priority.

    Over the water in Liverpool we have a huge white elephant being built late by carilion, loads of problems reported so far and a cost of 365 million

    ninfan
    Member

    free market capitalism = Privatizing profits and socializing losses

    Nah, free market capitalism = Letting it fail, and letting everyone whose pension schemes are invested in shares lose their money

    neilwheel
    Member

    Same thing, different words.

    project
    Member

    So if its allowed to go bust, huge redundancy payments from the state,to the workers employed , self employed get nothing, huge pension top up from the state,high unemployment for a while, services fail,as no staff to fix them, then new companies pick and choose which contracts they want adding on a premium,smaller subies go to the wall, new companies dont take on all the displaced staff, its a huge circle or bubble about to burst or become a whole circle.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    That’s why the Govt needs to buy it out.

    bikebouy
    Member

    That’s why the Govt need to stand clear of it and let it fail, pull in the shareholders and strip assets.

    Then get someone else to pick up the contracts and actually deliver the projects instead of laundering money into a system that’s seriously flawed.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Got no problem with the govt taking it over as long as the banks and shareholders get nothing. That won’t happen though will it. The shareholders will be screwed but the banks will get their loans back.

    slowster
    Member

    letting everyone whose pension schemes are invested in shares lose their money

    The argument that the shareholders of ‘too large to fail’ banks and other companies are pension funds, and that by implication it is ordinary people who will suffer if the companies are not bailed out by public money, is ultimately specious. Investment entails both potential risk and reward, and the job of pension fund managers is to manage the risk by ensuring that their funds are not excessively exposed to any one company or sector. Even more importantly, it is their responsibility as owners/shareholders to exercise supervision, influence and control over the boards of companies like Carillion, to ensure that the companies themselves are well run. Pension funds need to take a much more pro-active role in the monitoring of the businesses in which they have a stake (to do which, I suspect they need to employ a much higher calibre of people, i.e. individuals with as good an understanding of the businesses and markets as the companies in which they have shares).

    bikebouy
    Member

    The lying Tories did sweet fanny bugger all when Tata Steel in Redcar shut down, no help whatsoever.. not even a visit by your “friendly, call me Dave” no correspondence in the slightest.

    They all sat perving porn on their MPs computers and sending interns out to collect vibrators, standing up in front of the public and spewing out lies. And appeasing and supporting racism, and subsequently covering themselves in a thin veil of deceit.

    The government should stay clear of anything important, clearly incompetent rudderless backbone missing self serving brown nose each other Burlington club kick a homeless person whilst they’re down types.

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