What is needed is XC for the 5″ mountain bike brigade, a race where the 5″ bike is the ideal machine and I think Ive found the format.

If you look at motorbike enduro events like the “Tough One” its the skilled riders with fitness that win not the skilled rider or simply the fit rider, you need a race where a balance of skill and fitness and where some balls count too.

So a race where an XC racer on his hardtail wont make up ten minutes as the race goes up a fire road and then loses ten seconds on an easy descent, you need fast lines downhill with jumps that require a lot of skill and committment v an xc descent that will cost you a couple of minutes. thus keeping things tight in the racing and interesting for people to watch. etc.

I think Ive got a venue in mind and a format too.

I went to a meeting at British Cycling HQ in December 2007 on this very subject. Big_n_daft was there too. Much was spoken about a race series, support and organisation, none of which came to fruition.

From what I can gather the only two series of events that emerged from it were ones that were already planned.

The only way to get something done is to do it yourself.

“The only way to get something done is to do it yourself”

couldnt agree more.

As for comments on the British not being good at Marathon racing.

Did you see Neil Cramptons result at Cristalp this year?

17th!! and that is a result and a half.

sancho I don’t mean to disagree with you on everything, but fast downhills jumps that require skill and commitment…no.

Just been reading an email from a friend that summed it up. Local MTB stuff freindly and accessible, national stuff hard fast and technical not first time friendly.
That’s all we need, just more of it.
As it stands, does it really matter how interesting it is to spectators? racing is for the racers first and foremost.

As for the velodrome, a lot of road racers want to race track but have no facilities in the north East, so the Leeds veleodrome was intended to develop grass roots track racers.
As Manchester is very busy and not that accessible for a lot of people especially schools.

As for BC supporting grass roots events, they are happy to take your money, but dont provide much in the way of support – not even a Gazebo, the TLI is easier to deal with.

sancho, but don’t you think that such a course would actually dissuade newbies, and if part of the problem is attracting new riders to racing? Do most people have 5″ bikes or is the reality that most riders are on Hardtails, bikes cost money and i think some people forget that it is not normal to spend upwards of 2K on a bike.

And to be brutal MTB racing of any form isn’t actually that exciting to watch. that includes 4x which is about the only form of racing where you actually see riders in close proximity, DH is a glorified time trials and often XC isn’t much better.

What is needed is XC for the 5″ mountain bike brigade, a race where the 5″ bike is the ideal machine and I think Ive found the format.

Doesn’t it already exist? Eg the Gravity Enduro series. And it seems judging by the responses here if you want a ‘proper’ XC race people will be resistant to it having difficult stuff in it.

Oldgit, I agree with you as I want to organise old school XC racing where the lightweight hardtail with the fittest rider is king.
However I also want to look at new formats where the current mountain bike that is ridden by a lot of people is the ideal machine, currently there is no format for that at the moment.

And I dont mean gravity enduro where ex downhill racers clean up.

I went to a meeting at British Cycling HQ in December 2007 on this very subject. Big_n_daft was there too. Much was spoken about a race series, support and organisation, none of which came to fruition.

Harry five years ago. We want to hold races XC and CX. We contacted BC and they came to us ( a four month old club) what they’ve offered is everything. We sort the venue, provide a firts aider and lay the course. They’ll provide numbers, tape and stakes, all paperwork, a judge/commissaire, BC gazebo and bestest of all the ball…woo hoo.

The Hairy Coo is a grassroots xc race. Every year we hope that there is not a cyclo-cross race scheduled nearby which pulls riders away. This year there is a big British cyclo-cross thing over the border and a 24 hour thing up in F.W. No clash then?
It is cheap to enter and fun to ride. Skill and fitness wins it.

And I dont mean gravity enduro where ex downhill racers clean up.

Maybe that’s because they are the best all round mountain bikers? :shrug:

I think there are enough people on full sus bikes who’d like to race to fill an event, not all events are about persuading newbies to race.

Racing isnt all about inclusion, its about competition.

Agree with Oldgit I must say on that, the majority of people at a race are not up to a much more technical course. Watching the 100 or so Fun riders on the first lap at a Gorrick in the first bit of singletrack it’s often utter carnage! If you started making things properly technical I suspect a proportion would give up, and you wouldn’t replace them.

Very technical courses would still benefit a few people, just a different few to having no technical features, and would probably alienate more people, as I’ll wager people are more likely to get disheartened and not come back because a course was too difficult compared to one which was too easy.

Racing isnt all about inclusion, its about competition.

That’s precisely why it struggles – an elitist attitude like that!

Sorry just drifting off here, but just remembered the Scotish lads riding pure slammed XC race hardtails at the first Stathpuffer.
Good XC riders don’t need to be biked up, those Scotish kids were an inspiration.

What is needed is XC for the 5″ mountain bike brigade, a race where the 5″ bike is the ideal machine and I think Ive found the format.

What you’re saying is for a xc series to succeed we need to move away from xc and into another discipline? That’s akin to saying the 110m hurdles would be a lot faster and exciting if we removed those obstacles and made the course 10m shorter!!
The problem is attracting people at grass root. I’ve seen fast smooth World Cup circuits and slower much more technical circuits. There are xc circuits around that your average weekend warrior would baulk at on their 5″ steeds yet the xc racer skips through without a second thought.

Racing isnt all about inclusion, its about competition.

Yes, but wasn’t this thread about the state of international XC racing, i.e. racing in a manner that matches the UCI guidelines for what an XC race is. we have races in this country and our riders are, brutally, crap. How do you improve this? increase the size of the pool, increase the quality of the racing, does creating new formats address this.

How can you improve things? i guess money at the sharp end, make winning races pay, but you need to get people in at the bottom which means races close to where people live, and lots of them. Some will get the bug and progress others won’t.

That’s precisely why it struggles – an elitist attitude like that!

But isnt this thread about racing. By definition its elitist but it can also be inclusive. In racing everybody cant win but their is still competition between individuals through the field.
I love racing but seldom win.
We shouldnt be scared of promoting racing because we scare people off. People need to feel that they can join in but if its not for them then fine. Doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.

However I also want to look at new formats where the current mountain bike that is ridden by a lot of people is the ideal machine, currently there is no format for that at the moment.

I think the problem is largely down to it isn’t ever going to be the ideal machine for competition. It’s a bit like trying to arrange a running race that favours Wellington boots.
That’s not to say Wellies aren’t great, just that you’d have to come up with something fantastically convoluted to give them an advantage in any sort of competitive event.

How can you improve things? i guess money at the sharp end, make winning races pay, but you need to get people in at the bottom which means races close to where people live, and lots of them. Some will get the bug and progress others won’t.

Is there no prize money at local level BC events?

surfer that’s well put. I don’t know the Summit guys but they put on a good show, pretty well like youve spelt it out there.

I think there arent enough local events.
But who’d bother organisng something.

I suggest two races and get flamed.
Maybe it comes down to the attitudes of mountain bikers..
Ill still be doing my road events but may put off the mtb stuff in favour of cross.

Are riders in it for the money on the way up, I’d of thought not.

Are riders in it for the money on the way up, I’d of thought not.

Clearly not because there isn’t any money, so the top guys…Hang on!
Surely if solutions are being sought, money in the pot might be a solution, no?

Cheap, regular, local races have to be the way forward. Beastway, Matchams years ago, that kind of thing.

The anemic looking lycra’d up chappies riding super lightweight (fitness compensators) through nothing much more challenging than a ploughed field is the reason I didn’t start MTBing years ago. If we were to return to that elitist attitude where people carry their bikes over bits because it’s faster than riding, we’d see a massive decline in the sport IMO. Attitudes like crikeys are thankfully in the decline and popularity has grown as a result.
Racing is different, more power to anyone who competes but to suggest that being a competitive racer should be everyones aim is way off the mark.

Harry_the_Spider – Member
Oh Gawd, I’ve just found myself agreeing with big_n_daft… but he has a point.

you can get a cream for it 😉

the 2007 meeting was hysterical, no real clue, 80% of the people who went disappear never to be seen again

sancho youre not. But here’s my 2p worth.

Hold a ‘local’ event that’s technical and requires riders to be highly skilled and capable, and I’ll guess you wont have many show. Different if you bigged it up and made it a one off, but we are talking sustainable racing.

Hold a ‘classic’ XC race that will suit everyone and you’ll get people turning up week after week. Chuck in a ten minute kids race and you’ll be able to justify taking along the other half and taking the time to race.

If we were to return to that elitist attitude where people carry their bikes over bits because it’s faster than riding, we’d see a massive decline in the sport IMO. Attitudes like crikeys are thankfully in the decline and popularity has grown as a result.
Racing is different, more power to anyone who competes but to suggest that being a competitive racer should be everyones aim is way off the mark.

But nobody is saying that. The debate is about XC performance. The objective of racing is to get from A to B as quickly as possible within the rules and spirit of the event. You refer to this objective in a pjerotaive way.
Racing performance and popularity are two different things. I would argue that in sport the popularity of certain sports has been to the detriment of performance. I happen to think that performance is important and we now shy away and perpetuate rubbish about what constitutes “training” and “performance” my opinion is more alligned with Crikey and oldgit.

The anemic looking lycra’d up chappies riding super lightweight (fitness compensators) through nothing much more challenging than a ploughed field

So it is an image thing? I’ve done very few (although not no!) courses that are riding around fields. It’s hiddeously dull, it’s hated by the riders as well, I’m not really sure where that comes from, but it still seems to be a common perception of XC races by the masses.

We shouldnt be scared of promoting racing because we scare people off. People need to feel that they can join in but if its not for them then fine. Doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.

Agreed, perhaps I needed to include the rest of Sancho’s comment, about not everything encouraging newbies. Whilst I do agree to an extent, it’s a brave organiser who goes out of their way to alienate what is the largest proportion of riders. Having multiple races on crazy technical courses which can’t be ridden by many will not improve the sport in any way. IMO.

wrekcer, why? i see people in body armour and think do i really want to do something that dangerous?

In the early / mid 80s British rowing clubs were struggling to get ordinary Joe into their membership as the clubs were considered elitist.
Many of them organised fun rows, with full traing leading up to a fun event. The winners and anyone else interested then had the opportunity to choose if they wanted to continue.
This was my intro to rowing, which I enjoyed for a couple of years until personal circumstance meant I could no longer commit to a crew.
If , given the obvious concern about xc racing dying out, it is to regenerate, it will be ordinary joe who will need to come on side to do that. They will need encouraging, perhaps by feeling welcome in the first instance and not being made to feel as though they are entering a world of elitism, they will not sacrifice their trailbike for an out and out xc bike just to “give it a go”. Just maybe a ” fun” series alongside current full-on events may be worth a look on a run what you brung basis. Attracting say just 5% of the folk charging round the Forestry Commision on a sunday morning would give a massive boost, but they wont come unless they genuinely feel welcome. As I said earlier, personally I don’t really want to race, but thoroughly understand why folk do and remember what a huge part of mtb in Britain xc was. Of the 7 or 8 guys I regularly get out on the local trails with, one of them used to do trailquest, but prefers riding trails as a means of riding, staying fit and being with his mates, if I include him and maybe 2 others amongst us, there are 3 riders who would make good competitors, but they really feel it’s not for them.
I’m going to shut up now as I feel I’m interjecting in something not really of my business, although I think the trick is in persuading folk to give it a go and the XC comunity may need to meet those it wants to attract half way and go from there.

Having multiple races on crazy technical courses which can’t be ridden by many will not improve the sport in any way. IMO.

He actually suggested just having technical options with chicken runs that would add a significant time penalty didn’t he – mind you they do this already don’t they in XC racing? And the trouble is there’s often nothing to stop people just getting off and running down the technical section if they don’t fancy riding it.

to be a good DHer you need to be fit, but for the less fit you can buy a skill compensator and seem better than you are.

Errrrrr, have you ever seen a DH race? The average weekend warrior would be DFL.

As evidenced by the number of DNS’s at the National Champs last weekend, people thought they could get away with turning up and rolling down the hill, but those days are long gone. Somethign like 1/3 of the field left on Saturday after timed practice! Takes a lot more than balls and money to gat a good position now.

So a race where an XC racer on his hardtail wont make up ten minutes as the race goes up a fire road and then loses ten seconds on an easy descent, you need fast lines downhill with jumps that require a lot of skill and committment v an xc descent that will cost you a couple of minutes. thus keeping things tight in the racing and interesting for people to watch. etc.

Did you tee the WC Champrey course, the decents would put a lot of downhill runs in the UK to shame, and the bike of choice was still a hardtail, and the Olympic course would put Black runs at trail centers to shame!

I tag allong with quite a few clubs through the year and the standards vary imensely. Some are full of crap riders who just know the trails so appear fast, others are massively unfit, and talk the downhill/enduro talk before slogging up and down on fire roads with the occasional waterbar for 4 hours.

On the other hand, others are just f***** fast! Generaly it’s the quiet ones on unassuming hardtails you have to watch out for.

courses dont have to be bonkers with jumps etc to favour the technicaly gifted rider. The big dog course in brighton shows this. Its all rideable but those that have the ability can gain some serious time on the technical bits. so it is not just a climbing race.

The gravity enduro courses are all rideable but offer the skilled opportunity to gain an advantage. by timing the climbs you get a proper xc race dont you?

the off putting bit about an XC race at the moment is riding around boring courses while getting beaten by a roadie. i`m not sure that is representitive of what xc riding is any more. For most riders i know they ride around in circles, yes, but they do so in order to get in all the fun, technical, and challenging singletrack they can find.

So you want lees people partaking in MTBing so that the few can be more competitive?
Less people=less money
Less money=less investment, less trails, less products, less leverage for access, less exposure, less magazines.
Some people make a living out of MTBing (products and services) so you want all of those people to go broke too.
All because some people want faster racers and don’t like others wearing baggy shorts.
Some of us view MTBing like diving, climbing, surfing etc. It’s a great way to spend time and I don’t want to ruin my enjoyment of this by taking it too seriously. It changes from “fun” to “training”, and that is not what I want from riding my bike.

Lets not get into the bike carrying thing again, we’ve established that carrying may be required in any form of cycling at some point. Personally I’ve never seen carrying ever in an XC race only in enduros, cross and 24s.

Right. I’m going to put on an XC race that suits the big bikes. I’ll need some decent hills, gnarly singletrack and jumps at least. I’ll need permission and access to race on this course. Ideally private land so I don’t have to ask to many people to give up there day to marshall any paths etc. Then of course I’ll have to get risk assesment and insurance to cover it. Will an ambulance be able to get to the course…helicopters are a bit costly. Sounds easy so far. that just leave me enough time to go round taking down the course and picking up gel pouches before it gets dark. The day after I’ll pay for the venue, buy some more numbers because folk have gone home with theirs. Then I’ll sort out the results, have a cuppa then do it all again next week.

Actually I might just get permission to race round a few farmers fields, that’ll cost a bottle and some flowers for his missus. Most of the course can be left up. And access for riders and sevices is already there. And I promise not to giggle at that bloke again on the big full susser struggling with the dried up tractor ruts.

TINAS, i think you have made my point, if you know the local trails and have a skill compensator you can bluff your way and claim to be a good dher, come to racing and you will be shown up. Bluffing XC is far harder, if your slow up hill however much you spend your still going to be slow up hill.

But the Big Dog course is similar to the vast majority of XC courses, in fact it’s significantly less technical than many!

the off putting bit about an XC race at the moment is riding around boring courses while getting beaten by a roadie

Which courses are like that these days though? I can’t think of a single one this year. Sherwood isn’t remotely ‘technical’ in that families could easily ride the course, but at the speeds people are riding the singletrack there’s still a degree of skill required.

I know what you mean about ‘technical’ and ‘needing balls’ being different – a jump or a drop is more the latter, people either do it or not, they’re polarised and it doesn’t really benefit the race all that much. A very fast piece of sinewy singletrack is more the former. But most courses are all about fast bits of trail where a skilled rider can still gain a lot of time over the less skilled.

oldgit, your idea of a race (the first one) sounds really good. The second one less so.

Right. I’m going to put on an XC race that suits the big bikes. I’ll need some decent hills, gnarly singletrack and jumps at least. I’ll need permission and access to race on this course. Ideally private land so I don’t have to ask to many people to give up there day to marshall any paths etc. Then of course I’ll have to get risk assesment and insurance to cover it. Will an ambulance be able to get to the course…helicopters are a bit costly. Sounds easy so far. that just leave me enough time to go round taking down the course and picking up gel pouches before it gets dark. The day after I’ll pay for the venue, buy some more numbers because folk have gone home with theirs. Then I’ll sort out the results, have a cuppa then do it all again next week year.

😀

More details on another thread.