Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 116 total)
  • British Muslims.
  • MrWoppit
    Free Member

    I’ve just picked up a new thread in the “Muslims in the West” narrative that’s been running since the migration to fight with ISIS by the occasional disaffected Islamic youngster. After reading that Muslims in the UK blame the security forces for not preventing their children from travelling to to Syria, I picked up on the suggestion on the news this morning, that Muslim parents expect their “Imams” or mosque preachers, to bear the responsibility of instructing their children as to what is the acceptable stance to take, in relation to their feelings about the disjoint between what they’ve been taught to believe and the mores of the host culture. A spokeswoman for “Inspire”, a Muslim-based counter-extremism group, made the point that Muslim parents should bear the responsibility for this, which they are not doing. It struck me that if, as I deduce, it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance from authority figures as opposed to the Western idea of it being the responsibility of the parent, then this may be the fault line that is causing all the problems. Apart from the intense religiosity of the cult to which they belong, of course, which is a religiosity that is largely in it’s death throes among the non-Muslim populations of Europe amongst whom they live…

    hora
    Free Member

    Simple answer: faith schools off curriculum create the siege mentality early on.

    bails
    Full Member

    So every Muslim thinks and acts in exactly the same way?

    ads678
    Full Member

    I don’t get it all, but it really is very depressing. I’m not religious, but this is more than just religion.

    All I can say is thank god* they don’t seem to hate us enough to be fighting on our shores………yet.

    *yes, yes something about ironing!

    And when I say ‘they’ I don’t mean all Muslims, just the ones buggering off to Syria to fight.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    So every Muslim thinks and acts in exactly the same way?

    I doubt it, but the tendency towards relying on guidance from authority figures external to the immediate family and it’s own internal dynamic, is beginning to look like the Muslim cultural norm (at least to me as an outsider paying attention to the debate), in the same way that the “Western” habit of internal reliance in the family unit and parental guidance is another.

    fin25
    Free Member

    I know loads of Muslims. Apart from not having a beer when they go to the pub and fasting all summer they are no different to the non-muslims I know.
    Think about it, the parents of the kids that have gone to Syria are hardly gonna sit there and say it’s all their fault.
    I don’t think you can judge an entire culture based on the comments of a handful of members of that community.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    I don’t think you can judge an entire culture based on the comments of a handful of members of that community.

    I agree, but the suggestion is being made from a Muslim source, that the cultural tendency is there, possibly as a sort of unconcious undertow much as in the same way as the automatic deference to the upper classes used to be a “British” trait.

    Think about it, the parents of the kids that have gone to Syria are hardly gonna sit there and say it’s all their fault.

    No, but they could be in denial about the degree to which they might actually bear some responsibility for it?

    slackalice
    Free Member

    Apart from the intense religiosity of the cult to which they belong, of course, which is a religiosity that is largely in it’s death throes among the non-Muslim populations of Europe amongst whom they live…

    What or which religiosity are you referring to? I’m having trouble trying to understand your meaning there OP. Apart from a possible subtext of your usual inference to religion.

    Please explain, ta.

    oldnpastit
    Full Member

    All generalizations are false. FACT!

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    I suspect those that blame the Imans/security services are doing it to offset their feelings of guilt and failure, in the same way that non-Muslim parents blame teachers/the Police/the government when their kids do bad stuff.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    What or which religiosity are you referring to? I’m having trouble trying to understand your meaning there OP. Apart from a possible subtext of your usual inference to religion.

    Please explain, ta.

    My impression is that Muslims are more closely tied to their religion than, say, “Anglican”-type Christians, as evidenced by their worship attendance, displays of appearance requirements (beard styles with men, various levels of covering with women), repetition of the Koran and Hadith learned by heart, reference to these in most if not all commentary by spokesmen during TV discussions, adherance to dietary rules and so on.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    I suspect those that blame the Imans/security services are doing it to offset their feelings of guilt and failure, in the same way that non-Muslim parents blame teachers/the Police/the government when their kids do bad stuff.

    That’s a very good point. So what you’re saying is the stage props look different, but the root cause is the same.

    Hmm.

    surfer
    Free Member

    I don’t think you can judge an entire culture based on the comments of a handful of members of that community.

    This is the usual “You cant discuss a topic because the Muslims I know are top blokes and of the 3bn you havent spoken to them all therefore your arguments are worthless routine”
    Sam Harris quoted research that indicated the number of Muslims who had voted for Jihadist parties over a significant period (which is a reasonable study and statistic to accept as representative) at around 15%.
    He claimed that other studies (Harris would have checked these meticulously) indicated that on certain extreme subjects such as the punishment for Apostophy that the numbers were significantly higher (I think > 60%)
    I think that provides enough to begin a debate.

    Plus I always enjoy Woppits threads!

    fin25
    Free Member

    Did I say you can’t discuss it?
    Just humansisng the subject matter.

    nealglover
    Free Member

    on certain extreme subjects such as the punishment for Apostophy…

    To be fair, apostrophe misuse is a very serious issue.

    Isn’t’ it?

    loddrik
    Free Member

    I dream of a world where I put the radio on or the TV or read a newspaper where every other story is not about bloody Muslims…

    Coyote
    Free Member

    Agree with loddrick there.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    on certain extreme subjects such as the punishment for Apostophy…
    To be fair, apostrophe misuse is a very serious issue.

    Isn’t’ it?

    As is using words that you’ve just invented. 😉

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    I dream of a world where I put the radio on or the TV or read a newspaper where every other story is not about bloody Muslims football…

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    As above very hard to generalise. I don’t think Muslims parents are alone in trying to make some else responsible for their kids behaviour. There are elements of Muslim society which give undue influence to imams (who can be self declared preachers) and can be very patriarchal and unquestioning. This can create a scenario where people can rapidly become radicalised. Someone who wats to follow a radical path can find an Imam who supports those views and a more moderate preacher will be ignored by such an individual

    Over the past week we’ve seen a range of views expressed by Muslim bodies from “its all someone else’s fault” to “we must take responsibility”. I know Muslims who drink alcohol and don’t observe Ramadan, as well as those that are observant. Again you cannot generalise.

    As for the women who’ve gone to Syria I don’t really see what the authorities could have done. If they had prevented them travelling to Suadi / Mecca there would have been outrage. They made a decision they didn’t want to live in UK but instead in Syria.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    I don’t think Muslims parents are alone in trying to make some else responsible for their kids behaviour.

    True enough, but one has to say that there’s a difference betwee making excuses for your kids putting their feet on the bus seats, nicking sweets from the newsagent, and cutting people’s heads off.

    surfer
    Free Member

    Again you cannot generalise

    I think you have to generalise. Unless you assume that their is no common thread and that 3bn people are all acting independently and we therefore need 3bn approaches!

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    True enough, but one has to say that there’s a difference betwee making excuses for your kids putting their feet on the bus seats, nicking sweets from the newsagent, and cutting people’s heads off

    What about the non-Muslims who shoot church goers because of their colour, or kneecap informers, or use bombs to blow up town centres to further their religious/political cause?

    gwaelod
    Free Member

    Interesting hypothesis… But plenty of non Muslim Brits expect ‘the authorities’ to do something for them too. The concept of a Bountiful State (where authority does everything for you) is arguably more a generational thing than a cultural thing…those of us brought up post Thatcher may not buy into the idea that the council,police,whoever..will be around to wipe our bottoms and feed us.

    nickc
    Full Member

    it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance from authority

    Is it? Any proof for that assumption, or just a POV disguised?

    binners
    Full Member

    As someone of Irish catholic heritage I’d just like to apologise for the behavior of the IRA during the troubles. I understand now that I am collectively responsible for the Birmingham pub bombings, amongst other atrocities, and so are my parents who did absolutely nothing to stop it.

    Sorry. 😥

    suburbanreuben
    Free Member

    I suspect those that blame the Imans/security services are doing it to offset their feelings of guilt and failure, in the same way that non-Muslim parents blame teachers/the Police/the government when their kids do bad stuff.

    Nail/ Head !
    For some, everything, everything is always somebody elses fault these days.

    enfht
    Free Member

    Thank Christ that the West’s lite-islam is the ‘true’ interpretation otherwise we’d all be well a truly screwed. Almost got me worried there, phew.

    thepurist
    Full Member

    the number of Muslims who had voted for Jihadist parties over a significant period (which is a reasonable study and statistic to accept as representative) at around 15%.

    And the number of UK citizens who voted for parties with racist tendencies at our last election was around 13%. So 1 in 8 people posting on this thread has an agenda to misrepresent other cultures. Statistics are great aren’t they.

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    Given our leaders (elected and otherwise) and security services long allegiance with Saudi Arabia:

    ^Same bloke as with Thatcher, Bandar Bin Sultan, Saudi Ambassador to USA 1983-2005

    Isn’t it a bit odd that the most extreme form of islam, Wahhabism, which led to the rise of ISIS has been actively promoted in mosques throughout the UK and worldwide by Saudi Arabian interests

    an undercover reporter for Channel 4 filmed preachers and obtained DVDs and books inside mosques which were filled with hate-filled invective against Christians and Jews. They condemned democracy and called for jihad. They presented women as intellectually congenitally deficient and in need of beating when they transgressed Islamic dress codes. They said that children over the age of 10 should be hit if they did not pray. Again the main mosque chosen for exposure was influenced and funded from Saudi Arabia.

    “Saudi spending on religious causes abroad as between $2bn [£960m] and $3bn per year since 1975 (comparing favourably with what was the annual Soviet propaganda budget of $1bn), which has been spent on 1,500 mosques, 210 Islamic centres and dozens of Muslim academies and schools”.

    The ties are close enough that, Prince Turki bin Faisal, who was director general of Saudi Arabia’s intelligence agency from 1977 to 2001 (resigning the position abruptly on 1 September 2001, some ten days before the September 11 attacks in which 14 Saudi nationals hijacked commercial American airliners), then went on to become ambassador to the Court of St. James’s:

    Before going on to replace Prince Bandar (his cousin, involved with the very dodgy Al-Yamamah BAE arms deals and shown with Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair above) as Ambassador to the US.

    Add to the mix well founded allegations that the intelligence services have been involved in promoting extremism

    A few years ago, BBC Newsnight proudly hosted a “debate” between Maajid Nawaz, director of counter-extremism think-tank, the Quilliam Foundation, and Anjem Choudary, head of the banned Islamist group formerly known as al-Muhajiroun, which has, since its proscription, repeatedly reincarnated itself. One of its more well-known recent incarnations was “Islam4UK”.

    Both Nawaz and Choudary have received huge mainstream media attention, generating press headlines, and contributing to major TV news and current affairs shows. But unbeknown to most, they have one thing in common: Britain’s security services. And believe it or not, that bizarre fact explains why the Islamic State’s (IS) celebrity beheader, former west Londoner Mohammed Emwazi – aka “Jihadi John” – got to where he is now.

    and we really have to ask some probing questions

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    And so to jhj…

    chewkw next with his maggots, I suppose.

    Oh well.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    It must be very confusing for British Muslims. They’re told:

    – Listen to the people we think are your “community leaders”.
    – Unless they’re community leaders we don’t like.
    – But don’t listen too much, we want to you assimilate into British society.
    – Be more responsible for what your young people do.
    – Unless you’re telling them to wear headscarves or something.
    – When there’s an atrocity committed by a Muslim, remember you’re partly responsible, because you’re one of them.
    – But when the UK does something bad in a Muslim country, don’t complain – you should be British first, remember.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    What about the non-Muslims who shoot church goers because of their colour, or kneecap informers, or use bombs to blow up town centres to further their religious/political cause?

    What about the other 99.9 percent of terrorism that’s related to Islamism?

    I’m excluding Israel in my definition of terrorism, before any smart arses get ideas.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    I’m excluding Israel in my definition of terrorism, before any smart arses get ideas.

    Well, if you’re going to define terrorism in your own special way, then of course you can make the numbers do whatever you like.

    But in terms of civilian deaths and terror caused to innocent people, the West is way out in front. And a white terrorist in the US just killed more Americans in one go than ISIS have managed in total.

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    Have you got sources for that Tom?

    Let’s start with Europe. Want to guess what percent of terrorist attacks were committed by Muslims over the past five years?

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Because I am talking about non-state terrorism Ben.

    Jive, let’s look at 2015 shall we.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2015

    The only non-muslim terrorist event would appear to be a couple of knife attacks carried out by Japanese and korean Nationalists, and the Dylan Roof massacre.

    My point in all this, is that these issues can’t be skirted round by partaking in some western guilt tripping by highlighting when our own nutbacks go off the rails.

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    2015 is still in progress and as such doesn’t really show the bigger picture…

    What percent of terrorist attacks (in Europe) were committed by Muslims over the past five years?

    We also have to consider who defines what a ‘terrorist’ attack is, as apparently, a white guy shooting fellow humans with a different skin colour in a church doesn’t count

    Because I am talking about non-state terrorism Ben.

    Referring back to my post on the last page and in particular this link we have to question how much terror doesn’t have some degree of state involvement.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    What percent of terrorist attacks (in Europe) were committed by Muslims over the past five years?

    Why do you only care about terrorist attacks in Europe? Non-Europeans not deserving of being free from the fear of being blown into the stratosphere by a car bomb?

    Also, by using the search term “5 years” you are deliberately selecting a small sample size and doing the same as what you accuse me of.

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    Well, being as this is a thread about British Muslims, including the rest of Europe is being quite generous…

    Also, by using the search term “5 years” you are deliberately selecting a small sample size and doing the same as what you accuse me of.

    Perhaps you’d like to compile a study for us to peruse?

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Well, being as this is a thread about British Muslims, including the rest of Europe is being quite generous…

    It’s partly about British Muslims going to Syria and blowning themselves up, yes? But when British Muslims do that, it’s not terrorism cuz they didn’t blow Brits or mainland Europeans up right?

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