That would kind of be the point. Non-muslim terrorists can’t join Anti-Islamic State, because there isn’t one. The existance, accessibility and huge public presence of jihadist terrorist organisations gives them a flag and an easy road to follow. Anti-islamic terrorists in the UK just set fire to a mosque.

I refer you to

The truth seems to be that propaganda on its own cannot force its way into unwilling minds; neither can it inculcate something wholly new; nor can it keep people persuaded once they have ceased to believe. It penetrates only into minds already open, and rather than instill opinion it articulates and justifies opinions already present in the minds of its recipients. The gifted propagandist brings to a boil ideas and passions already simmering in the minds of his hearers. he echoes their innermost feelings. Where opinion is not coerced, people can be made to believe only in what they already “know.”

ISIS wouldn’t exist without underlying sentiments that lead to joining these sorts of groups, there is no anti-muslim ISIS because the sentiment does not exist on the ground.

The underlying sentiments wouldn’t exist without Saudi funded Wahhabism…

which kinda brings us back to this:

Given our leaders (elected and otherwise) and security services long allegiance with Saudi Arabia:

^Same bloke as with Thatcher, Bandar Bin Sultan, Saudi Ambassador to USA 1983-2005^

Isn’t it a bit odd that the most extreme form of islam, Wahhabism, which led to the rise of ISIS has been actively promoted in mosques throughout the UK and worldwide by Saudi Arabian interests

an undercover reporter for Channel 4 filmed preachers and obtained DVDs and books inside mosques which were filled with hate-filled invective against Christians and Jews. They condemned democracy and called for jihad. They presented women as intellectually congenitally deficient and in need of beating when they transgressed Islamic dress codes. They said that children over the age of 10 should be hit if they did not pray. Again the main mosque chosen for exposure was influenced and funded from Saudi Arabia.

“Saudi spending on religious causes abroad as between $2bn [£960m] and $3bn per year since 1975 (comparing favourably with what was the annual Soviet propaganda budget of $1bn), which has been spent on 1,500 mosques, 210 Islamic centres and dozens of Muslim academies and schools”.

The ties are close enough that, Prince Turki bin Faisal, who was director general of Saudi Arabia’s intelligence agency from 1977 to 2001 (resigning the position abruptly on 1 September 2001, some ten days before the September 11 attacks in which 14 Saudi nationals hijacked commercial American airliners), then went on to become ambassador to the Court of St. James’s:

Before going on to replace Prince Bandar (his cousin, involved with the very dodgy Al-Yamamah BAE arms deals and shown with Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair above) as Ambassador to the US.

Add to the mix well founded allegations that the intelligence services have been involved in promoting extremism

A few years ago, BBC Newsnight proudly hosted a “debate” between Maajid Nawaz, director of counter-extremism think-tank, the Quilliam Foundation, and Anjem Choudary, head of the banned Islamist group formerly known as al-Muhajiroun, which has, since its proscription, repeatedly reincarnated itself. One of its more well-known recent incarnations was “Islam4UK”.

Both Nawaz and Choudary have received huge mainstream media attention, generating press headlines, and contributing to major TV news and current affairs shows. But unbeknown to most, they have one thing in common: Britain’s security services. And believe it or not, that bizarre fact explains why the Islamic State’s (IS) celebrity beheader, former west Londoner Mohammed Emwazi – aka “Jihadi John” – got to where he is now.

we really have to ask some probing questions [/quote]

Tom_W1987 – Member

ISIS wouldn’t exist without underlying sentiments that lead to joining these sorts of groups, there is no anti-muslim ISIS because the sentiment does not exist on the ground.

You think anti-muslim sentiment doesn’t exist on the ground?

The vast majority of terrorist incidents today are carried out by deluded Muslims. It hasn’t always been like that and may not be in the future but right now they have a monopoly. It is true that a significant minority of British Mulsims condone Jihad in the Middle East and Africa although quite how they get from a position of being against Assad and believing Isreal has no right to exist to wanting to cut the heads off other Muslims I don’t understand at all. What happened in Charlston was a racially motivated hate crime, if you want to classify it as terrorism you can but as sad as it is to see 9 people murdered at a bible study group it’s a fraction of those which are dying in Syria and Iraq every day.

We live in a free and open country, people are entitled to hold differing views. If they find their religious beliefs mean they cannot accept living in the UK they are free to leave and frankly I would not spend resources in trying to keep them here against their will. I would spend money making sure they don’t get to come back. If other countries don’t wish to accept them that’s their choice too. Jihadi John wasn’t welcome in Kuwait, he’d been born there but had no right to live there.

Jive, all these photos and links mean nothing. As a politician you are obliged to interact with many people including those you may not agree with, you may interact with people you detest as the least bad option. The same logic applies to Royalty. I know you understand this.

It’s hard to ignore the argument that suggests the Middle East and North Africa needs brutal leadership to keep things in check. We’ve seen the “Arab Spring” which many in the West would lead to some kind of democratic revolution and an increasing acceptance of tolerance and western values turn into chaos and anarchy and a murderous list for power, control and of course money.

You think anti-muslim sentiment doesn’t exist on the ground?

Not to the extent that causes large scale organized violence aimed at bringing down governments.

My point stands, people join and or start organizations where there is already a willingness to do so. These people aren’t brainwashed, they don’t go from being moderate democracy loving Muslims to terrorists. The rise of fascism in Germany was predicated on the existing national myths and feelings of victimization that already existed in Germany before the rise of the NSDAP. The same can be said for many of those British individuals joining ISIS.

and we really have to ask some probing questions

I’m sure the alien lizard overlords will have some probes with which to ask searching questions.

Mr Woppit – Member

And so to jhj…

chewkw next with his maggots, I suppose.

Oh well.

To be precise they are called zombie maggots not maggots. 🙄

Some people … ts ts ts! 🙄

Tom_W1987 – Member

Not to the extent that causes large scale organized violence aimed at bringing down governments.

My point stands, people join and or start organizations where there is already a willingness to do so.

Why would western anti-muslims be joining terrorist campaigns to bring down their westernised governments? This is just insider vs outsider. British anti-islamic terrorists don’t have any need for that sort of campaign, they’re attacking a relatively weak minority so their terrorism takes a different form- street hate-crime, attacks on islamic centres, etc. (and unsurprisingly, gets far less attention than muslims going to join ISIS.)

You’re basically asking why a terrorist apple acts differently from a terrorist orange. Or an orange terrorist 😉 Different motivations, different environments, different outcomes. It’d never be any other way.

Also, remember that ISIS didn’t start here- people are given a convenient and succesful flag to follow, from outside. Would the people going to join ISIS have started their own ISIS here if it didn’t exist? Not a chance. Sometimes people take up chess because there’s a chess club.

This is just insider vs outsider. British anti-islamic terrorists don’t have any need for that sort of campaign, they’re attacking a relatively weak minority so their terrorism takes a different form- street hate-crime, attacks on islamic centres, etc. (and unsurprisingly, gets far less attention than muslims going to join ISIS.)

If people were willing to sensibly discuss the causes of terrorism, try to make Muslims feel more British and attempt to reduce the ghettoisation of them then there wouldn’t be as many Muslims joining ISIS and there wouldn’t be as mush anti-muslim sentiment. Would there? Instead you are helping to damage the Muslim community even further by attempting to show why it’s totally not a problem that 500-1500 Brits have joined ISIS, not only that, but we have a duty to Syrians/Iraqi’s to make sure that as few of them join ISIS as possible.

You are going out of your way, clutching at straws even, to try to argue why that discussion should not take place.

Without ISIS, there would have still been more 7/7’s and Lee Rigby style attacks. The rest of the world would still be suffering from the spectre of Islamic terrorism and disaffected British youth would still be tempted to join other groups such as Abu Sayaf/AQ/Boko Haram.

But yes, let’s get back to why there isn’t a catholic terrorist chess club etc.

The vast majority of terrorist incidents today are carried out by deluded Muslims.

less than 2% of terrorist attacks in Europe over the last 5 years have been carried out by muslims

of terrorist attacks on US soil from 1980-2005, Muslims only accounted for 6%

Jive, all these photos and links mean nothing

My bad, I’ll just take your word for it, though it was a bit weird that Prince Andrew and Tony Blair intervened to prevent the Serious Fraud Office from investigating the Al-Yamamah Arms deals with BAE, which started during the Thatcher administration and involved Bandar Bin Sultan (pictured with Thatcher and Tony Blair)

Two senior SFO sources confirmed that BAE case-handlers had protested in strong terms at the time at the request for a briefing by Prince Andrew, and insisted that he only be given publicly-available information. “They all thought the request was well out of order,” one said. They felt “very uncomfortable”.

At the time, the SFO was coming under intense pressure from Saudi and UK arms company lobbying.

The anti-corruption agency were forced to suspend their Saudi investigation by Tony Blair, then prime minister, who said it jeopardised crucial intelligence sharing relationship with the Arab state.

Nothing to see here:

Got one in our running club ,always on about getting more blessings ,wont go to
a pub even to get a race number ,cant get a lift with a solo bloke to a race what a load of doodah and what a sad way to live your life

Two things,

1) I’m not sure as I understand the OP. Are you saying “families defer to religious leaders for religious teachings”? Because if you are, isn’t that how most religions work generally? What have I missed?

2) <mod> JHJ, do I have to ban you for a week so that this discussion can flow? You’re welcome to take part in the conversation but if you make another repeat post of something everyone’s already chosen to ignore once, I’ll do exactly that. </mod>

I’ll do what I do… if you feel that requires a ban, then ban away…

You never know though, you might learn something, though you’ll probably just stick to fiction as usual

😆

The many many Muslims I know are lovers or haters of the U.K. So different to the natives…

When asked where their loyalties are, it’s the Islamic faith and Muslim brothers, not the U.K.

It’s not a religion, it’s their values and way of life.

It’s also the fault of the U.K. of not making them feel welcome, fear and racism.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Instead you are helping to damage the Muslim community even further by attempting to show why it’s totally not a problem that 500-1500 Brits have joined ISIS, not only that, but we have a duty to Syrians/Iraqi’s to make sure that as few of them join ISIS as possible.

You are going out of your way, clutching at straws even, to try to argue why that discussion should not take place.

No, you’re just making stuff up, and not even bothering to try and make it convincing. If you can’t counter my actual arguments, and just decide to lie about I’m saying, that’s a shame for you but really, why would I keep wasting time with it?

Talking about preventing discussion, while doing your best to prevent discussion, is pretty absurd though.

jambalaya – Member
The vast majority of terrorist incidents today are carried out by deluded Muslims.

😯 ???

It hasn’t always been like that and may not be in the future

And isn’t now.

It struck me that if, as I deduce, it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance from authority figures as opposed to the Western idea of it being the responsibility of the parent, then this may be the fault line that is causing all the problems

Failure of deduction perhaps? Or is it really just that simple?

it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance

Woppit hasn’t yet shown any evidence for this, so at the moment it’s a bit of a made up generalisation/rubbish

Deluded Muslim ? So as we get more information from Austria about the murder of three people by someone driving a car into a crowd and then getting out and stabbing people we discover the culprit is an Austrian citizen of Bosnian heritage. Bosnian = Muslim ? We don’t know yet but there is a good chance and this attack mirror those seen in France carried out by French Muslims.

Northwind trying to say that the fact only 1% of British Muslims have joined ISIS so therefore it’s not a Muslim problem is flawed logic. Firstly zero percent of non Muslims have joined ISIS from Britian, a number have been recent converts, converted to a radical form of Islam. Secondly counting only those who travel to Syria, Iraq and Elsewhere is significantly underestimating those who support the ideology.

Kurds. So you are a Kurd or a Yazidi or a Shia Muslim and you witness ISIS slaughtering your fellow citizens and you as a terrorist for fighting back. Obviously to win the support of STW and not be seen as a terrorist you are supposed to surrender and have your head cut off.

I wonder who said this eh ? Spot on in my view;

“Not all Muslims are terrorists, but today all terrorists are Muslim”

it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance

Woppits quote. @nick it doesn’t apply to all Muslims, it’s a generalisation of course. However it’s a patriarchal religion where the male head of the household makes the decisions and the village town elders, males again, act as judge and jury. We can see both of these in the postal voting scandals where the male head of the household registered the voters and determined the candidate who’d get the votes. This follows that those lower down the pecking order including all women are not used to deciding issues for themselves. Most of the evidence for this you need you’ll find in the Quran.

it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance

Woppit hasn’t yet shown any evidence for this, so at the moment it’s a bit of a made up generalisation/rubbish

The quote in full, and in context, with a key word highlighted for you:

A spokeswoman for “Inspire”, a Muslim-based counter-extremism group, made the point that Muslim parents should bear the responsibility for this, which they are not doing. It struck me that if, as I deduce, it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance from authority figures as opposed to the Western idea of it being the responsibility of the parent, then this may be the fault line that is causing all the problems.

If you’re going to quote me, please don’t edit me down to do it out of context in support of your own particular prejudice.

Apart from which, the discussion had moved on to the point that the root cause of the relationship between the parent’ actions and authority figures was a psychological tendency to shift the blame for their own shortcomings just the same as non-Muslim parents are inclined to do.

Keep up.

Deluded Muslim ? So as we get more information from Austria about the murder of three people by someone driving a car into a crowd and then getting out and stabbing people we discover the culprit is an Austrian citizen of Bosnian heritage. Bosnian = Muslim ? We don’t know yet but there is a good chance…

…and it gives me the opportunity to say “blah blah blah blah”.

“New Islamic Law sparks controversy in Austra”. Story from March where a new law which explicitly states that Austrian law takes precedence over Sharia has sparked controversy as similar requirements don’t exist for Christianity and Judaeism.

http://www.dw.com/en/new-islamic-law-sparks-controversy-in-austria/a-18276225

No, you’re just making stuff up, and not even bothering to try and make it convincing. If you can’t counter my actual arguments, and just decide to lie about I’m saying, that’s a shame for you but really, why would I keep wasting time with it?

Talking about preventing discussion, while doing your best to prevent discussion, is pretty absurd though.

There’s no point arguing with you as it’s a chicken and egg argument, I believe mass movements only occur with considerable support amongst the general population and those that join them already hold opinions that are sympathetic to that movement – you think that mass movements create support for themselves – which runs contrary to the views of many political thinkers from Eric Hoffer to Che Guevara.

Not sure what you’re trying to prove Tom, Ukraine has been thrown into chaos by state sponsored terrorism with narry a Muslim in sight
There is obviously a powerful use of Islamic prpoganda to recruit a tiny minority of British Muslims to fight with IS , but IS itself is run not by religious zealots but by ex Saddam generals, so this all come back to that war, a war that a much higher % of torries than labour voted for.
But our media gov and society love to focus on our cultural differences differences, look at the rise of ukip and its dominance of the political agenda or the use of fear of the snp as a tool to win an election.
Government policy has seen the fracturing of our education systems, an obsession with free schools and faith schools is sewing the seeds for an even more divided country in the future, the overhyped fear mongering we are seeing now is just a taster for what these policies will ultimately bring to fruition

If you’re going to quote me, please don’t edit me down to do it out of context in support of your own particular prejudice.

My quote and yours appear to be as similar as makes no difference, you seem to want to suggest that Muslims need or want guidance from authority, if you’ve “deduced” it then from what evidence have you done so?

It’s a simple question Woppit, however you seem to want to split debating hairs rather than address the point.

My deduction was from a statement by a Muslim representative of the charity “Inspire”. My conclusion simply followed what she was saying and I qualified it by using the word “if”.

I also attempted to draw your attention to the later development of this point following a comment from another poster who had, unlike you, something useful to say on the matter which you have chosen to ignore, probably because it does not suit your agenda.

I don’t usually take the trouble to re-explain myself in the face of someone so obtuse, but in this case I’ll make an exception.

I also see that as usual, an STW thread has resolved into the usual suspects trying to score points off each other rather than actually deal with the subject, so I’ll just let you get on with engaging whatever distortion comes to mind that makes you feel happy.

And for that reason, I’m out.

‘bye.

an STW thread has resolved into the usual suspects trying to score points off each other rather than actually deal with the subject

Oh the irony given what preceded you saying that

So lets me get this right; one woman from an organisation opines that some Muslim parents seem not to be taking responsibility for their families, leads you to deduce that young Muslims are joining terrorist organisations because not taking responsibility (by looking to authority for guidance) is a cultural norm for Muslims?

But you have no evidence (other than repeating that’s what you’ve concluded), and don’t want to provide any.

Way to win an argument! That’s me told… 😆

Being as some on here have clearly been suckered by propaganda, this helps put things in perspective:

While I understand the point, starting your data-set for “people killed by muslim extremists in the US” just after 9/11 rather strips away the context.

If US furniture had suddenly crushed 3,000 people in a single morning right before they started collecting statistics about that, I’d be more understanding of the War on Wardrobes.

😉

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/isis-brides-secret-world-jihad-western-women-syria?CMP=fb_gu

Organised religion is madness.

There are dicks who do not take responsibility for themselves all over the world amongst all classes and demographics.

There will always be extremists guised in one form or another….religion and politics is an easy medium for this.

People need to relax and get into a bit of riding, yoga, thai boxing or whatever puts a smile on their faces…..as long as its not blowing people up or gunning them down!

JJ as above gaping hole in that is it’s post 9/11. If you fly planes into the WTC and the Pentagon you can expect a world of pain in return. In fact that’s exactly what the terrorits wanted, they wanted to provoke the big war (I forget what name they give that in Islam but it has one). In addition the anti-terrorist security of the US and other nations has minimised the threat, there have been many bombing and hijack attempts

As per the graphic above, the attention whore nature of all religious types especially muslims is more annoying than their actual threat.

Why anyone should think I give a **** about someone else believes I have no idea.

While I understand the point, starting your data-set for “people killed by muslim extremists in the US” just after 9/11 rather strips away the context.

Fair point, but if we’re going to look at the bigger picture, we have to take global trends into account…

For example, with such a vast military budget, the USA doesn’t generally disperse flowers and kisses around the world:

That’s before you take into account covert ops of the CIA (along with other intelligence agencies, including MI6 and Saudi intelligence), such as Operation Cyclone, which led to the rise of Al-Qaeda in the 1st place.

For a bit more context:

Though the figures are debatable (as figures always are), the general trend is clear.

That before you take into account anomalies such as Princess Haifa sending funds to people who aided the hijackers.

After the September 11 attacks, she was investigated for a sequence of payments allegedly made to a Saudi national by the name of Omar al-Bayoumi, who is known to have assisted two of the hijackers upon their arrival in Southern California, and who himself is suspected of being a Saudi intelligence asset. Investigation has confirmed that some of the payments were in fact forwarded to al-Bayoumi’s wife, Manal Bajadr; the significance of these payments (and the extent to which they may have assisted the hijackers) is unclear.[2]

In April 1998, Osama Basnan, a Saudi national living in California, wrote to Haifa requesting money for his wife’s needed thyroid surgery. Haifa sent Basnan $15,000, although his wife, Majeda Dweikat, was not actually treated for another two years.

At some later point (accounts vary as to when; dates between November 1999 and March 2000 were given, and a Saudi government official put the onset at 4 December 1999),[3] Haifa began sending monthly cashier’s checks to Dweikat of either $2,000 or $3,500, transporting them through Riggs Bank.[4] Dweikat signed some of these checks over to her friend Manal Bajadr, wife of Omar al-Bayoumi. The payments continued through May, 2002 and eventually totalled between $51,000 and $73,000. (This sort of charitable donation known as Zakat from members of the House of Saud to Saudi nationals living abroad is not particularly unusual.)

Osama Basnan had been under suspicion for many years. In 1992, the FBI had received information suggesting a connection between him and a terror group later associated with Osama bin Laden. In 1993, there were reports that Basnan hosted a party for Shaikh Omar Abdul-Rahman. According an anonymous U.S. official, Basnan “celebrated the heroes of September 11” shortly after the attacks, and talked about “what a wonderful, glorious day it had been.” In interviews and investigations after the attack, Basnan has given sharply contradictory testimony about monies received and his relationship with Bajadr and al-Bayoumi. Basnan was deported on 17 November 2002

Princess Haifa is the wife of this guy, Bandar Bin Sultan, Saudi Arabia’s US Ambassador throughout Operation Cyclone and 9/11:

She also happens to be the sister of this guy, Turki Bin Faisal,

who was director of Saudi intelligence throughout Operation Cyclone:

Saudi intelligence joined Pakistan’s intelligence service and the CIA in funding the mujahideen. Turki last met with bin Laden in early 1990*, when bin Laden was interested in aiding against the South Yemen communists.[21] His intelligence agency kept careful track of bin Laden from the beginning of his rise.[22]

In 1993, Turki helped mediate between warring factions in Afghanistan. In early 1996, Sudan offered to extradite bin Laden to Saudi Arabia. Clinton called on Turki to bring bin Laden back to Saudi Arabia for a quick execution. Saudi Arabia denied the request and Osama left Sudan for Afghanistan.

*I’d like to know more about these allegations of a meeting in 2001

Two months before September 11 Osama bin Laden flew to Dubai for 10 days for treatment at the American hospital, where he was visited by the local CIA agent, according to the French newspaper Le Figaro.

The disclosures are known to come from French intelligence which is keen to reveal the ambiguous role of the CIA, and to restrain Washington from extending the war to Iraq and elsewhere.

Bin Laden is reported to have arrived in Dubai on July 4 from Quetta in Pakistan with his own personal doctor, nurse and four bodyguards, to be treated in the urology department. While there he was visited by several members of his family and Saudi personalities, and the CIA.

The CIA chief was seen in the lift, on his way to see Bin Laden, and later, it is alleged, boasted to friends about his contact. He was recalled to Washington soon afterwards.

Intelligence sources say that another CIA agent was also present; and that Bin Laden was also visited by Prince Turki al Faisal, then head of Saudi intelligence, who had long had links with the Taliban, and Bin Laden. Soon afterwards Turki resigned