Welsh in bitching about JW Shocker!
He will be held in my absolute esteem forever as he was so instrumental in England winning the world cup (that and he’s still the highest international points scorer of all time).
I fully understand the Henson thing, I think he’s a fantastic player who is rarely aknowledged for being as intelligent (on the field) as he is. I also think that byrne is the best full back in the world and S Williams is in the top 2 of wings.
I don’t care about the nationality of the individual players on the lions team, I thought that was the point (unity). There are selections from eng, wales and ire that I don’t understand.

Jeeeeez, move on…. if the English are puzzled about why the Welsh like Henson, we are equally puzzled about the Wilkinson love-in.

Errrr, cos despite his faults (injury after injury after injury, very occasional underwhelming performance when he’s fit) you can’t argue with statistics.

HIGHEST POINTS SCORER IN INTERNATIONAL RUGBY EVER!

Henson is on his day, very good indeed. Just how often does that happen? Not that often obviously, as Gatland and Edwards leave him out of the team more often than not! He’s very very inconsistent.

Wilkinson had bad days, but a Wilkinson bad day (on the pitch I mean) was still usually average by everyone elses standards. He’s not only a match winner, he’s a World Cup winner. Sure it takes 15 men to play the game, but time after time, Wilkinson has been the difference between winning and losing a game. He averages almost 15 points per bloody game on his own!

As far as I’m concerned it’s this ability to change a game, pretty much singlehandedly that distances a good player from a world class player. Which is why I’m sticking to what I said earlier about the only 2 players in the Lions Squad that have that ability being Brian O’Driscoll and Shane Williams (who has not had a good season by all accounts). Leigh Halfpenny is looking to be one for the future though possibly, but I still can’t believe in any of the rest of the squad being that difference, not in the Wilkinson vein.

The argument that is probably more appropriate is that in hindsight, should Clive Woodward have taken Wilkinson on the 2005 Lions tour? Well, considering how unfit he was in the run up to it, perhaps it wasn’t fair that he went not totally fit and match practiced. But fit, and on his day, Wilkinson is the best Fly Half in the world. And statistics say the best fly half ever! Possibly only to be bettered by Dan Carter in years to come (though hopefully Johnny will get a few more years injury free yet!)…

Sorry, forgot Shane Byrne. Will add him to the list as possibly he’s up there in the world class stakes too… Possibly…

Sorry to do this to you mboy, but Shane Byrne rides motorcycles.
There’s a number of players who can change a game, Sheridan is one of the strongest players in Rugby and can decimate scrums.
M Williams can severley slow opposion ball down pretty much alone and O Gara averages almost 10 pts per match. Each of these players, on their day can change the course of a game IMHO. That’s on top of BOD and SW and LEE Byrne!

Shane Byrne is the owner of possibly the best mullet ever to grace a rugby field.

Wilkinson was great and everything but there are plenty of players in that squad who can change a game, even the underrated ones. ROG had a patchy Six Nations but look at the Wales game – a perfectly weighted cross kick putting Bowe in under the posts and a screamer of a drop goal to win the game. Phillips nearly took that game for Wales with an incredible run, if he’d scored he’d be a Lions shoe-in. You never know who is going to become a legend!

I personally cant wait. There are some people not going that I think should be amd there are some going that shouldn’t. But I think we can beat the boks. Wales could have beaten them in the Autumn series. Personally I think POD is the right guy to lead them to a series win if not a whitewash.

Sorry to do this to you mboy, but Shane Byrne rides motorcycles.

Eeeesh. My bad! 😳

Yes he does indeed, and rather fine motorbike rider he is too!

And LEE Byrne (dunno why his name escaped me, mind on other things I think) is a pretty good fullback in fairness.

O’Gara is a good player, and he’s been consistently the Irish no. 1 choice for Fly Half for a long long time, but I just don’t think of him as being World Class. He’s worked well in the Irish team alongside O’Driscoll for a number of years, but I don’t quite count him in the same class. He’s up there in terms of the number of points scored, but for a “world class” fly half 10 points a game isn’t quite there really… Though he’s probably the most reliable in Britain & Ireland right now.

Shane Byrne is the owner of possibly the best mullet ever to grace a rugby field.

They just dont have haircuts like they used too!

Sheridan is not world class by any stretch of the imagination. His reputation internationally is from one game against a poor Aussie srum. He binds illegally and has poor technique. Since then he has been found out by his opposite numbers and refs and did nothing in the 6N except give away penalties.

I wouldn’t even have him in the squad given the number of better props we have.

He does nothing outside of the scrums. Compare him to Murray or Jenkins who are world class and do more than lumber around the field flopping onto rucks.

WE do have adam Jones tho to scare the opposition with his haircut

Imagine a front row of the Jones’ and Shayne Byrne – now that hair would scare the oposition.

Im not a huge fan of Sheridan either to be honest and I doubt he can make the test team unless he really improves his form over the next month

as Gatland and Edwards leave him out of the team more often than not! He’s very very inconsistent.

Not true, in fact its very wide of the mark. Henson has only been left out of the Wales team by Gatland when he’s been woefully short of match time. In fact Gatland, the dour New Zealander, regularly jizzes himself into a frenzy during press conferences whenever the prospect of a fit Henson is discussed. He has also delayed the naming of the finished squads just so he can give Henson more time to prove fitness. Hensons bad games for Wales follow a pattern, a few early in career when he was only 19 and thrust into the 10 shirt with hardly any pro-rugby under his belt, a game when he was on early to replace Jones against Ireland away a few seasons ago having not played a full game for about 4 months and then there’s the games where he plays 15 at which he isnt very good. But like Johnny Wilkinson he has had a career blighted by injury. The thing that people dont get about Henson is what he does is subtle, his defence is very good and all about positioning and resetting the line, his passing games makes others look very good (see how much better Shanklin looks outside henson rather than Roberts), he’s an exceptional rucker, he can take the ball forward in heavy traffic and he has a huge boot on him. Despite all this because he doesnt side step defenders and score tries people think he’s rubbish.

For the record I think Wilkinson is a fine player WHEN FIT. MY point maybe should have been that there are a load of posts on here wishing that so and so was available, was fit, was still playing etc. Unfortunately, Wilkinson isn’t fit, neither is Henson, JPR Williams retired a lomg time ago, and Willie John isn’t going to appear on the pitch in SA, so there’s no point wishing for these things. They aren’t going, fantastic players or not.

Errrr, cos despite his faults (injury after injury after injury, very occasional underwhelming performance when he’s fit) you can’t argue with statistics

HIGHEST POINTS SCORER IN INTERNATIONAL RUGBY EVER!

And who is 9points below below Wilkinson? Neil Jenkins. Does that mean that Jenks was the 2nd best player in the world? I know the answer…..

I am a bit sceptical of all this talk about “picking on form”…

Most of the squad have played a lot of big games this season and have quite a long way to go with league games/ Heineken cup etc. Is there a risk that the current form players will be completely burnt come Test time? It’ll be a long ol’ season for some of those guys!

Cardiff players for example had the big EDF games, have massive Heineken cup game(s) coming, not to mention really having to get every point in the league to play European rugby next season. I am a bit worried that there is only so much focus not to mention physical form you can maintain- professional or not they are still human.

On a side note, I have it on good authority from a friend who played a few games for Wales that Henson does indeed shave his legs before every match 🙂 I guess now the Welsh AND roadies can both jump to his defence now 😀

I watch a lot of the super 14, as I am sure from the measured postings above we all do. I think we are going to appreciate just how good Shanklin is in the debate about centre partnership. I always thought he was the Welsh Paul Scholes, goes about his business very eficently and lets others around him grab the publicity.I think the type of SA game will suit him and also Worsley at 6. I am worried that the team has been picked to play a certain way, and the lack of a “gamebreaker” (BoD, is getting on) may make the Lions struggle to produce a plan B. I cannot see us winning the series

On a purely Scottish note, watch Euan Murray cement his reputation as the new “Bear”

And who is 9points below below Wilkinson? Neil Jenkins. Does that mean that Jenks was the 2nd best player in the world? I know the answer…..

Not necessarily, but I tell you what… ANY country in the world would have loved to have Neil Jenkins’ kicking consistency within their team. As an Englishman watching Wales/England games over the years, when Jenkins was playing we weren’t scared by his brilliance with the ball in hand, his incisive running, brilliant tackling or anything like that. He put the ball over the goalposts, time and time and time again, from just about any bloody where on the pitch! He almost single handedly introduced the concept of the dedicated Goal Kicker within a team.

Points to mean prizes after all!

Not true, in fact its very wide of the mark. Henson has only been left out of the Wales team by Gatland when he’s been woefully short of match time. In fact Gatland, the dour New Zealander, regularly jizzes himself into a frenzy during press conferences whenever the prospect of a fit Henson is discussed.

LOL

OK fair enough. I remember seeing Henson play for the first time, and thought that the guy was very talented. He is still very talented, but I don’t think he’s up there with the greats though. And not only that, he suffers as badly from injury as our man Wilkinson. He is undeniably Orange though!

I remember seeing Henson play for the first time, and thought that the guy was very talented. He is still very talented, but I don’t think he’s up there with the greats though. And not only that, he suffers as badly from injury as our man Wilkinson. He is undeniably Orange though!

He’s orange, he shave’s his legs and is apparently a complete tosser when drinking all very true. He’s also very talented and very “rugby intelligent” (not to be mistaken for any other type of intelligence), he’s also been at the heart of two Grand Slams for Wales. What he has never done is prove himself against the southern hemisphere teams which is a real shame. Looking at players like him and wilkinson I cant help thinking that the game has become too physical in recent years. Would Barrie John shine now? Game is poorer without these players.

As an Englishman watching Wales/England games over the years, when Jenkins was playing we weren’t scared by his brilliance with the ball in hand, his incisive running, brilliant tackling or anything like that. He put the ball over the goalposts, time and time and time again, from just about any bloody where on the pitch!

We still lost. Always. (Or at least it felt like it.)

Looking at players like him and wilkinson I cant help thinking that the game has become too physical in recent years. Would Barrie John shine now? Game is poorer without these players.

Not sure about the physicality bit – I’m sure you remember Cardiff – Swansea knocking bits out of each other legally and otherwise in the 90s, just using one example. Players have become so much bigger though, thats the difference. Jamie Roberts at centre is taller and heavier than pretty much every player on the 74 Lions tour. Henson himself is the size of a backrower from a few years back.

Ha this will annoy some people, Wilkinson is an oaf, if anyone can be called a one trick pony it is him. People coo and eulogise about how hard he tackled, but what happened he destroys himself physically. It is not his job to knock second rowers on their arses, leave it to the flankers. He didn’t need to get involved in that side of the game.

He was never a fantastic runner, he distributed well and as we all know had a great boot. He had the luxury of playing behind a juggernought pack as did the most average international scrum half Dawson and had so much time and space anyone would have looked good. Under pressure he was very fallible, his pass to Cipriani towards the end of England Wales in 06 is an example.

It is a shame that his career has been so blighted with injury but take off the World Cup winning rose tinted specs and face facts, two people won the that Cup for England Martin Johnson and more importantly Richard Hill.

On the Lions front Worsley is great defensively but offers nothing in attack, the most disappointing aspect of his tussle with Roberts in the 6 Nations was that Roberts didn’t seem able to outthink him. Just kept running into him.

Would add more but got to go to an incident.

PIgface, Have you ever watched JW play a game of Rugby? Are you just spouting things that you may have overheard drunken people say in welsh or scots pubs? A LOT more than 2 people won the WC, you seem to forget the only player to have played every minute of that competition was Lawrence Dallaglio, Neil Back has always been immense. jason Robinson had a pretty big say in it as did will greenwood. So, for gods sake stick to cycling and leave the rugger to the grown ups.
Did you cause this “incident” by smoking too much crack?

RUGGER??????

I don’t watch RUGGER!!

backhander, please refer to the game in a non English public school, rosy cheeked, barbour wearing, prawn sandwich type way, otherwise I may be forced to…………..

well I don’t know.

Sulk?

Many folk agree with pigfaces assessment of Wilkinson. A great tackler, great kicker, all right at distributing the ball but slow, poor at running with the ball.

Playing behind a juggernaut pack he was great – trundle down the field and kick the points.

However he was easy to negate because of his limitations. When defending against him you sent runners at him and he retreated behind the pack preventing him ever getting the backs away so he had to kick the ball away.

Last lions tour he was a disaster. Usually appearing at inside centre with a forward at first receiver. The second half of the 3rd test cussitor and a different scrumhalf ( O Gara?) came on and the game was transformed – fast ball to the backs.

Wilko – a great player for 10 man rugby. His time has passed the game has moved on.

A good analysis there, TJ.

I don’t disagree with all you say there TJ.
His time has almost certainly passed but to pigeonhole him as a kicker as pigface did is grossly unfair. He was poor on the last Lions tour but did not deserve to even be there, let alone take somebodies place in the centre. As for running, he’s still scored more tries in less tests than Stephen Jones. It annoys me when people of differing nations fault him for few real reasons when its more based upon the amount of points he’s stuck on them in the past. BTW, I certainly don’t remember O’Gara playing at scrumhalf, did I miss that?
IdleJon, sorry for that, I’m the absolute polar opposite of a public schoolboy.

Sorry – should have read standoff.

Wilkinson is slated by the non english not so much for the points – remember Patterson has a better % record but because of the way he was venerated by the English fans despite being a limited player. He was never even the best standoff in the 6N during his career let alone the world.

lol, backhander. Sulk over.

One of my lasting memories of JW is from Swansea v Newcastle, St Helens, 99/00 I think. JW playing at 12 against Scott Gibbs. At one point Gibbs hunted him down, forced him to run directly away, into his in-goal area before being clobbered. You had to be there.

Same with Henson, he behaved like a child for quite a few years and has never proved himself at the highest level, neither has O Driscoll, Jones, even the celebrated (or worshipped) Shane Williams. Perhaps O Gara was better during some 6N, but certainly nobody else and definately not Jones.

I think TJ has hit the mark with his Wilko assessment.

England were a great team in 2003 but it was built on 2 of the all time greats, Jonno and Richard Hill (guess I am agreeing with Pig Face?). They also had a whole host of great players. Bankhander is right with most.

Neil Back has always been immense.

Not sure why Neil Back figures in so many people minds as a ‘great’. He was ok, even good as a link player. Weak tackler, not as good at turing the ball over as his peers and not a lineout option.

As for running, he’s still scored more tries in less tests than Stephen Jones.

Thats like saying, he must be a good runner he’s scored more tries than a tortoise!! I think we should all be able to agree that Wilkinson was good but he’s no Dan Carter or Steven Larkham.

Same with Henson, he behaved like a child for quite a few years and has never proved himself at the highest level, neither has O Driscoll

Well jesus, what a load of tripe, I will accept you dont think Henson has proved himself (two grand slams, two grand slams, two grand slams,two grand slams) but O’Driscol, jesus christ talk of the typical, I only started watching rugby when England won the World Cup viewpoint. Go and look up his play during the last Lions tour to Australia, he was breath taking against the best team in the world at the time.

Shane Williams never proved himself at the highest level either is complete rubbish look at the tries he scored against SA last summer, he also tore the NZ defence to shreds during the 2005 world cup and he has scored plenty agaisnt Australia too.

It annoys me when people of differing nations fault him for few real reasons when its more based upon the amount of points he’s stuck on them in the past

and it annoys me when people are too stupid to see the talent for the game that Henson has in spades too, but in a team sport scoring tries and lots of points isnt on its own indication of how good you are. Wilkinson was good but was never the best in the world unlike a number of the people he played with for england.

Well jesus, what a load of tripe, I will accept you dont think Henson has proved himself (two grand slams, two grand slams, two grand slams,two grand slams)

IMHO, to prove yourself at WORLD class, it should be by playing abainst the best teams in the world, not just the home nations and France. If you had missed it, there are not any SH teams in the 6N.
SW tore so many defences to shreds in the 07 WC that wales reached….the group stage (BTW what WC were you watching in 05?)

I only started watching rugby when England won the World Cup

Well son, you’ve missed a lot of good rugby, I’ve been playing and watching Rugby for 20+ years.

Or did you mean the 03 world cup where NZ beat wales 53 – 37?
I bet the All black defence considered themselves well and truly “torn”.
Oh, hang on is that the word cup that England WON? (WORLD CUP WORLD CUP WORLD CUP) so gloriously by a Jonny Wilkinson drop goal in the dying seconds? Oh, I think it was.

Backhander you are making yourself look foolish. Your comments about Henson are just pitiful. He may be a prima donna, he may be orange, he may shave his legs but he is a exceptional rugby player.

And I thought the Lions was supposed to bring the four rugby nations together! 😀

No we all hate each other really!

(Fancy a pint, boys?)

I just can’t wait for that first test! Should be awesome … 🙂

Steve

Pigface, please read my earlier post;

I fully understand the Henson thing, I think he’s a fantastic player who is rarely aknowledged for being as intelligent (on the field) as he is

Feel a bit foolish?

A A is spot on.

BOD and Williams have without a doubt proved themselves at the highest level. I have a mate from my rugby days that continues to question Shane Williams. I just don’t get it, I really don’t. World player of the year FFS.

Never heard anyone say it about BOD before. Best outside centre of this generation IMO – though I know a LOT of people would agree.

Henson I think has more to prove, and lets face it with his off the field antics he is always going to have to do more. I think he was instrumental in both of Wales’ grand slams though. Not suprised he is not in the Lions due to fitness questions.

BOD and Williams have without a doubt proved themselves at the highest level

Enlighten me. As already stated, the 6N do not count.

Backhander you must be on a wind-up now.

Williams was probably considered useful by a few people when he was named IRB World Player of the Year 2008.

O’Driscoll is probably the most complete centre of his generation. Its unfortunate that you’ve eliminated the 6 Nations from the reckoning as BOD as just been named player of the tournament for the 3rd time in 4 years. He’ll just have to be content with his match winning performances in the HEC, Irish victories over South Africa and Australia and 3 Lions tours as a Test starter.