been on the lookout for a new touring bike and started to notice a few things.
a complete touring bike from a uk wide bike seller can be bout for not much over £600. a full shimano groupset, disc brakes, rack, specced up gear on larger sizes, pretty much all you need.
a certain niche/ more fashionable bike seller sells a frame made from the same steel for a penny less than £600.
now i am not having a go at the more fashionable seller, i am just wondering if we are being had over by some bike companies.

surely a fully equipped bike and a frame should not be priced the same?

now i am not having a go at the more fashionable seller, i am just wondering if we are being had over by most some bike companies.

sadly happens in all walks of life. Paying for the brand.

BUT just because its made from the same metal doesn’t mean its just as good.

given we don’t know the brands, are you actually comparing like with like? Same country of manufacture? Same investment? Same R&D?

yeh c’mon ton spill the beans

i reckon so
steel frames are both made in tiawan, cheaper one is reynolds.

From the stating-the-bleeding-obvious-department:

If you’re a small niche company selling a few hundred frames a year you won’t be able to cut a deal with Shimano & friends when buying groupsets and the like. Big chains shifting thousands can.

This is something that also gets me going. Sadly I love cycling, so I have to just take it 🙁

Steel frames are produced in china for as little as 10 dollars a piece. Carbon fibre bikes, for no more than 250. The same carbon frame will end up in a store for probably 3000.

R&D? yes they send on that. But marketing budgets vastly exceed r&d budgets. Nothing is developed or implemented unless it is highly marketable. Sad but its true. Why do you think the 29 inch mtb came out? market saturated with 26, starting to stall. The answer? a new product, does very little more than the existing product (if anything). The right marketing convinces people they are great and hey presto. Everyone is out needing to buy new bikes, frames wheel and forks to keep up with the fad. Sorry but its how it is.

i just think we are being had over.
we all like to think what we have is the best/next best thing…..i have wasted thousands trying to do it.
when a bike becomes nearly as dear as a car, well shirley there is something wrong.

i just think we are being had over.
we all like to think what we have is the best/next best thing…..i have wasted thousands trying to do it.
when a bike becomes nearly as dear as a car, well shirley there is something wrong.

Most of my bikes have been worth more than my cars 🙂 They have given me more pleasure and fun than any of my cars and I’m happy with that.

As for ripped off….

Some things cost more, some don’t.
The endless release cycle with new bikes/tweaked components etc doesn’t help. It also leads to lots being sold off at the end of the year.

As a small manufacturer (or assembler as most are) then you can pick the deals etc offer a tightly controlled product depending on whats available (On-One/Titus El Gupo)
If your big like specialized you can tell everyone what your going to pay.

In the end of the day the price is there, your choosing to pay it.

Looking at my next possible bike it’s a Santa Cruz, it’s not revised and changed every year, the build kit will be Hope same thing there.R&D spread over more units.

I’m happy to pay for the R&D, the importer to import and deal with tax and support, I’m happy to pay the shop to source and deal with issues and to assist with the build, I’m happy that Hope & SC put back into the sport through sponsorship of a wide range of riders.

There are very few cyclist who would need a bike which cost more than £1000 in reality, but there are plenty of us who buy them, so we are really doing ourselves over. The companies are just taking advantage of this ?

A big part of the hobby ( sport ?) is the kit and a lot of us ( me included) enjoy the kit as well as the riding.

After some time I have found I like a good frame, reasonable fork and wheels, low end groupset ( deore etc) and brakes.

The bike I have done the most miles on is a cheap Boardman road bike.

Are you looking at the revolution traveller by any chance? 😀

Not sure we’re being ripped off. Bikes are expensive these days. And smaller (niche) companies will always charge higher prices to cover their overheads, while their larger counterparts churn bikes out ten a penny on the production line, making their money back through the quantities they sell.

I’m pretty sure some companies do a better job of getting the balance right than others, but I wonder how many of the directors are driving around in Ferraris. I bet it’s not the ones selling the expensive frames.

I like to think I’m pretty savvy, but I was pretty shocked when I found out that a rather expensive niche brand admitted that their frames were cheap China imports that Joe public could buy for a few hundred quid.
These were then painted in trendy Belgian colours and sold on for over 1.5k

Oldgit… Link to the cheap china imports please… 😀

This is something that also gets me going. Sadly I love cycling, so I have to just take it

You don’t have to take anything – cheap bikes exist. If you want expensive bikes – they exist too. Whats the point of getting angry about wanting something thats expensive?

If someone pays £X for product ‘Y’ without a gun to their heads, they are not being ripped off.

I sometimes will pay a premium price for something beacuse I simply ‘want’ it. If I am prepared to pay for it I am not being ripped off. We all like to buy nice things whether its Those Trainers; That Car; That Camera; Those Speakers etc.

On the other hand, I often like a bargain if I can get it….

We actually still have no idea which brands the OP is talking about to be able to make a decision on being ripped off or not so all hypothetical.

we all like to think what we have is the best/next best thing

Nope.

i have wasted thousands trying to do it.

Yes. Yes you have. Wonder how much more you’ll spend in pursuit of whatever it is for you next.

tootall, you do come over as a complete ****…..or is it just me?
i posted this thread because i think that some bike companies charge a bit much, no other reason, and yet you turn it into something else, so that you can have a little snide dig.

the kind of riding i am capable of now does not warrent me spending a load of dosh on a bike, and when you can not ride through illness, when you are then able, any bike will do to be honest.

so please stop having you digs…or just dont post on threads i put up.

I think (someone correct me if I’m wrong) but for every product you can buy, there is a much more expensive “boutique” version or similar product that costs more because has more brand cache, or has x,y or z. After much deliberation I got a sony smart phone free on a contract, and to me it literally does everything an iphone does – but I’m not paying hundreds for it.

On the flip side of that, I love a bottle of Innis & Gunn, it probably costs three times as much as a can of tesco lager. They do the same job too, but I prefer the more expensive one. My choice.

Smaller companies have their frames built in Taiwan because that’s where the vast majority of frames are built these days. That’s where all the expertise and machinery is, and they get a quality product at a sensible price.
I’ve got a couple of Specialized carbon frames built in Taiwan and I wouldn’t call them cheap, Chinese stuff.

Oldgit… Link to the cheap china imports please..

Look at the Ritte site. I assume the details are still there. They do or did a gorgeous looking carbon frame in ‘that’ Belgian blue. And there was a note pointing you to the site where you could buy the frame yourself in the standard gloss black for IIRC £340

my current bike has plenty of marketing bullsh!t I don’t really care. Its a great bike to ride.

I’m sure I’ll pay more than I have to for plenty of products in the years to come.

Why do you think the 29 inch mtb came out?

Here we go.
So, the slightly different rides characteristics that I enjoy & prefer, are actually…well…not really there ?
Oh, I’ve been such a fool. Again.

You’ll be telling me the tooth fairy isn’t real next.

Ton, agreed. But I think there are a few more considerations. Someone has to spec these Chinese frames in the first place for instance.
My SIR.9 is overpriced, no doubt. It rides brilliantly, but not 6x what my old Inbred cost.
What annoyed me was the near on £200 Niner steel fork. But for the disc mount, it’s exactly the same as a Singular Swift fork, same weight, same dropouts, cable guides etc.

Bikes are a rip off, we’ll the large volume brand are who get the economies of scale. But that’s nothing compared to the price of cycling clothes. They are a rip of of monumental proportions. Anything over £30 for cycling shorts is scandalous.

Would you be happier paying £115 for that Niner fork? That’s how much it costs to buy in the USA. I’m not aware of Singular selling the fork seperately – perhaps he’d charge more than £115 for it instead of bundling it with a frame.

Happens in most industries if not all….want a VW/Audi or a Skoda ? same platform often…or take the recent food revelations…there are only so many factories producing these things, with multiple production lines for different retailers…..your tescos basics is probably made somewhere near the tescos extra special (or whatever its called)…stil I wont go its making me ho*rse…

Smaller companies have their frames built in Taiwan because that’s where the vast majority of frames are built these days. That’s where all the expertise and machinery is, and they get a quality product at a sensible price.
I’ve got a couple of Specialized carbon frames built in Taiwan and I wouldn’t call them cheap, Chinese stuff.

Specialized carbon frames are made in China.

But that’s nothing compared to the price of cycling clothes. They are a rip of of monumental proportions. Anything over £30 for cycling shorts is scandalous.

Makes me laugh, I happily pay £60+ for good shorts, all have lasted 5+years. For that value I’m happy and don’t feel ripped off.

ton – Member
been on the lookout for a new touring bike and started to notice a few things.
a complete touring bike from a uk wide bike seller can be bout for not much over £600. a full shimano groupset, disc brakes, rack, specced up gear on larger sizes, pretty much all you need.
a certain niche/ more fashionable bike seller sells a frame made from the same steel for a penny less than £600.

There’s your problem, you’re looking for a tourer. I’ll bet the “certain niche / more fashionable” frame isn’t marketed as a tourer, is it? A tourer is hardly fashionable (in a current marketing sense) and so does not carry a premium. Now, a 29″ bikebacking touring-light, mtb-cross frame capable of taking a fat front, that’s a different matter! Kaching… 8)

There is a massive pricing range in the world of bikes and there is no doubt some of it represents very poor value for money.

My current frame is a rocky mountain – hand built in Canada and could probably justify its original £700 price tag although I paid about that for the whole bike second-hand.

Nicely painted Chinese steal frames or ubber high price carbon would be my guess where the low value for money comes in – as above probably popped out at a fraction of the retail price.

At the end of the day, it’s all about supply and demand. If you make a product and enough people are willing to pay you £600 for it, why would you sell it for £300?

Companies sell stuff for the amount that maximises profit. That might be not many units at a large profit margin (if the product is of sufficient quality) or tonnes and tonnes at a tiny profit margin.

No-ones being ripped off as no-one is forced to buy anything.

wors – Member
Are you looking at the revolution traveller by any chance?

spot on mate, fantastic value innit? 😀

There is a massive pricing range in the world of bikes and there is no doubt some of it represents very poor value for money.

My current frame is a rocky mountain – hand built in Canada and could probably justify its original £700 price tag although I paid about that for the whole bike second-hand.

Nicely painted Chinese steal frames or ubber high price carbon would be my guess where the low value for money comes in – as above probably popped out at a fraction of the retail price.RMs frames are made in Taiwan.. I had a Blizzard 853 frame. Lovely paint, expensive to do that in Canada but the frames themselves weren’t particularly expensive to make in Taiwan. Finishing, shipping, route to market, it all adds up though. Perceived value is high because Rocky do things that cost money and need paying for, marketing’s among those things.

spot on mate, fantastic value innit?

I nearly got one myself but ended up getting a Kona Dew Drop, end of line. It is a cracking value bike though 😀

Regarding the Chinese frame option, I’ve had a bit of experience with this. Currently building up a cheap Chinese road frame (the one with the ISP that looks a LOT like a De Rosa) for a mate. For the money (I think about £300 all in with duty paid) its very nice and pretty light. Even with low end campag and rubbish wheels it’s a touch over 16lbs which is bloody good – meaning you could easily build up a sub 17lb road bike for under a grand.

However, there are a few issues – the internal routing for the rear brake only takes a gear cable, not a proper brake cable – scary. The finish inside the frame isn’t brilliant and the ISP seems to flex a LOT. But for £300 you can’t really grumble – don’t be expecting top end performance and you wouldn’t be disappointed.

What really grips my sh1t are the companies like Blackhawk who blatantly buy a job lot of these frames from China, bung a few stickers on them and punt them out the door for more than twice as much. A bloke at work has one and whilst he’s very happy with it, I’d feel properly cheated if it were me. They offered me a frame & fork for nearly £800 which is the exact same one you get via Carbonzone.

flange,

i’m a big fan of chinese carbon… i’ve bought and sold plenty of it.

there are two points i would like to make here.

1.) just because a frame looks like another, it doesn’t mean that it is the same frame. there are plenty of open-mold designs and lots of very VERY good fakes, but they may not be built to the same standard as the ‘known brands’. there is still a gulf of difference that makes it worth buying direct from china (in my opinion), but it is not necessarily comparing apples with apples.

2.) for an importer or manufacturer to offer these products here in the uk, they need to warrant them and ensure that they have the necessary CE certifications. if you buy direct from china, you don’t get any of that. some of the more ‘renowned’ chinese companies will stand up to their warranties, but ultimately, if they choose to stick their fingers in their ears, there is bugger all you can do about it.

at the end of the day, companies will charge what they can get away with. nothing wrong with that all… the business you work for almost certainly does exactly the same thing.