In fact, it’s perfectly possible for a digital signal to degrade without a human being er, being able to tell. Take for example an 8bit serial data link, which encodes 256 different states into 8 serially transmitted bits. Depending on the significance (LSB to MSB) of the bit that is miss read (read high when it’s low, or vise versa) the data value might be changed by as much as 128 (MSB) to only 1(LSB) out of a possible value of 256. Then take the fact that those bits will be sent down the cable with significant oversamplling (say 192kbs for example on a 44kbs raw data rate) and it’s highly likely that a single or non repetitive error will be invisible to the human ear!

I find it very difficult to believe you’ve never heard anyone refer to ‘brighter’ or ‘darker’ in relation to tone or timbre before, what with it being a universal concept.

Yup, I’ve heard it, and I’ve also heard reflexologists referring to releasing healing energy by foot manipulation.
My point is that referring to something as brighter, or darker is a useful as referring to healing energy without some measurable metric. And with out such metric, you’re pretty much in the realm of at best psuedo-science. If ‘brightness’ was measurable, then Naim would be able to put their cables on a network analyzer, and show the difference in result to some less ‘bright’ cable. Other manufacturer’s would then be able to demonstrate if their cables were ‘brighter’ (and price them accordingly). If manufacturer’s claim that a network analyser couldn’t detect such things then they’d be asserting that physics isn’t how we imagine it to be, and thus would be dealing in the supernatural.

The measurable metric is probably frequency response. Or dB in a given frequency range perhaps. The problem is that most people’s ears don’t have spectrum analysers built in.

Er, when did I say the changes weren’t measurable?

You don’t believe that people are able to differentiate changes in timbre between sounds of identical pitch and loudness?

How very extraordinary.

If ‘brightness’ was measurable, then Naim would be able to put their cables on a network analyzer, and show the difference in result to some less ‘bright’ cable.

This happens all the time in HiFi mag’s, where they do a frequency response analysis of a given piece of equipment and then publish the graphed data to show where in the frequency the peaks and troughs may be.

The standard measurement is +-3dB for any given frequency as being detectable by the human hear.

The standard measurement is +-3dB for any given frequency as being detectable by the human hear.

I think it less than that – more like 1db:

http://www.dspguide.com/ch22/1.htm

I think it less than that – more like 1db:

http://www.dspguide.com/ch22/1.htm

Actually, it depends on the frequency, duration and intensity of the sound as well as the auditory context – some sounds can be significantly louder in difference than would normally be noticeable, but due to the sounds around them they are almost completely imperceptible.

It can be as low as 0.3dB – e.g. 1khz @ 80dB SPL but 1Khz at 20dB SPL is as high as 1.5dB.

Sound is one of the areas where Weber’s law falls flat on it’s arse.

I found that aligning the mains cables with a handy ley line produces a far more rounded and defined auditory experience.

You’ll need to hire a druid to install one.

This guy should be available:

It’s quite amusing if you work in telecoms – we have £100k plus measuring kit which is orders of magnitude more sensitive than any audiophile’s ear, needs calibration kits which cost £10k + and still runs on a cheapo 99p mains lead.

I love these threads. Why don’t you give your spare money to charity instead.

If mains noise is actually an issue, your money would be better spent on a UPS that can provide nice clean inverted DC power completely isolated from the mains feed. And that’s a big ‘if’.
Trouble is a UPS can’t normally supply the current your power amps might want, but cool for other stuff.

We have the largest UPS in Europe at work, pretty sure it could manage…

You don’t believe that people are able to differentiate changes in timbre between sounds of identical pitch and loudness?

Given that the timbre of sound could only really reasonably be described as a function of pitch (or more accurately frequency) and loudness (or more accurately amplitude), how can they remain the same and the timbre be different?

Usual old arguments. Engineers vs HiFi users…

At Casa Woppit:

… plus a separate spur from the mains.

Sounds lovely. 8)

That’s…

http://www.grahams.co.uk/hi-fi/hifiaccessories/naim-hydra.html

Usual old arguments. Engineers vs HiFi users…

Engineers design this stuff. They usually have some sort of technical understanding of the principles behind it, too.

Hi Fi users don’t, either design it, or as is self evident by the existence of some of this complete crap, understand it.

Of course, there are folks quite happy to perpetuate misunderstanding in order to sell stuff.

C’est la vie.

Bokonon, that’s not timbre.
Think of two violins playing exactly the same note at exactly the same volume.
They will sound different.
They each have a different timbre.

We have the largest UPS in Europe at work, pretty sure it could manage…

would it fit nicely at home?

Hi Fi users don’t, either design it, or as is self evident by the existence of some of this complete crap, understand it.

Yawn.

They do listen to it, however…

(Cue usual spite about snake oil, you only think it sounds different, you’re an idiot, James Randi challenges etc etc etc)…

Yawn.

They do listen to it, however…

(Cue usual spite about snake oil, you only think it sounds different, you’re an idiot, James Randi challenges etc etc etc)…

Isn’t it amazing how some people simply
refuse to listen to rational arguments…

Isn’t it amazing how some people simply
refuse to listen to rational arguments…

what is the point of that?

Here’s one that was made earlier:

Raindog – Member

A friend of mine has about £20k of Naim kit, which sounds very nice. Another friend of his came round one evening with a different mains lead to try. I laughed At first, but the difference was astonishing.

Bokonon, that’s not timbre.
Think of two violins playing exactly the same note at exactly the same volume.
They will sound different.
They each have a different timbre.

Given that notes are only very loosely defined, the comparison is meaningless.

The sound is a collection of different frequencies tones at different amplitudes – yes, each violin will have a different collection of these, but they are still just functions of frequency and aomplitude.

P.S. which tuning system is the violin using? you know that 440hz concert A is only for nazi’s right? 😉

Late to the discussion….

A colleague of mine if absolutely 100% convinced his upgraded mains cables are the best thing since sliced white.

I also call “snake oil”, but would like to verify for myself. This guy is not at all gullible (usually) and was initially sceptical about the idea himself.

He is currently upgrading the cables on all his a/v appliances. So far, he’s done his amp, CD, sky box and telly.

He uses these: Russ Andrews Reference at £225 each for 1.5m length.

Russ Andrews is also responsible for these at an eye watering £3k for only 1m 😯

They do listen to it, however…

But not impartially, and that is important.

(Cue usual spite about snake oil, you only think it sounds different, you’re an idiot, James Randi challenges etc etc etc)…

Spite? You have the wrong engineer.

I call it “crap” because even if it all does what it says it does, audiophile kit is extortionately priced for its benefits. e.g. £150 for a Naim power lead that provides star earthing? Could be done for £5. Easily.

You’re perfectly at liberty to spend your cash on audiophile products, it’s your cash, this is the beauty of living in a free world.

But not impartially, and that is important.

how do you know?

audiophile kit is extortionately priced for its benefits.

Quantify them.

£150 for a Naim power lead that provides star earthing

That’s gone up since I bought it at £80…

I think the prices of these accessories does start to get silly when you could upgrade something much more important for the same price, say, a PSU for instance.

Quantify them.

He did. In the bit you snipped.

Quantify the benefits…

Similar to Mr Woppit I went down the separate spur and olde style round sockets and plugs. Sounds nice, (Standard Naim cables and amps here).

You want the engineers to find some way of measuring something which isn’t apparent on normal measuring equipment, but only in the heads of HiFi users?

Alternatively, as mentioned in the bit you’re ignoring, the benefits are exactly the same as you’d get from £5 worth of star earthed mains leads.

the equivalent of :
floating rotors
braided hoses
extra wide bars
tyres with more than one compound in them
etc etc etc

oh hai!

He is currently upgrading the cables on all his a/v appliances. So far, he’s done his amp, CD, sky box and telly.

£150 for a power cord for a Sky Box? That is hard-core! I can sort of understand spending £150 if its attached to £2000 CD deck but a cheap and nasty Sky box! It doesn’t even operate at full 1080p.

You want the engineers to find some way of measuring something which isn’t apparent on normal measuring equipment, but only in the heads of HiFi users?

What about this?

£150 for a power cord for a Sky Box? That is hard-core! I can sort of understand spending £150 if its attached to £2000 CD deck but a cheap and nasty Sky box! It doesn’t even operate at full 1080p

What exactly is he hoping this will improve about the Sky Box?

Sound “quality” ?
Picture “quality” ?
Amount of missed recordings per month ?

You want the engineers to find some way of measuring something which isn’t apparent on normal measuring equipment, but only in the heads ears of HiFi users?

Not particularly.

Alternatively, as mentioned in the bit you’re ignoring, the benefits are exactly the same as you’d get from £5 worth of star earthed mains leads.

Interesting point. I daresay that much, if not all, consumer goods are overpriced (mountain bikes, anybody?). You might have a whole new market for yourself, there. If you can produce a hydra lead for a fiver that sounds as good as my £80-worth from Graham’s, you’ve got my vote. There wasn’t one available at the time when I wanted to maximise efficient power supply to my system, though.

It’d be interesting to do a blind test of these things.

The guy with the £225 power lead to his Sky box for instance. See if he’d leave you alone in the room with his new cables and a handful of regular mains cables; you hook up his kit with one set at random and he comes back and tries to tell you which is in use by listening to it.

I’ll bet dollars to donuts that he can’t tell reliably which is which. Which, y’know, is fine and all, I’m sure it’s a “subtle” difference. But after spending a grand on kettle leads I’d want my socks blown off.

Incidentally,

What’s all this “star earth” business?

EDIT – answered my own question.

http://forums.naimaudio.com/displayForumTopic/content/15364009042958819

Hmm.

http://www.lh-electric.net/tutorials/gnd_loop.html

What’s all this “star earth” business?

You connect every appliance’s mains earth, using an individual cable, to a single central point.

As opposed to, e.g. inside a cheap 4-way extension lead, where each appliances mains earth is connected to a metal bar inside the extension lead.