Are we being fleeced? « Singletrack Forum

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Are we being fleeced?

100 posts & 61 voices | Started 6 months ago by dogbert | Latest reply from ransos

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dogbert - Member

Now I'm positive i'm likely to get flamed for this, but have bikes in general just gone completely mad?

I get that parts used in bikes are way more technologically advanced than they have ever been and smaller parts are harder to make thus more expensive but all i seem to read these days are posts that contain something along the lines of "I've paid a couple of hundred quid for *insert product name* and it's failed after two rides"

I'm sure it's not a conspiracy by the bike manufacturers to make duff products but there does seem to be a massive amount of expensive parts and bikes flooding the market that don't seem to be lasting more than a couple of weeks. Bikes are becoming more expensive every year (although Canyon's do seem to be amazing value in comparison) but don't seem o have any longevity.

Discuss

Posted 6 months ago #
chakaping - Member

Personally I find modern stuff lasts a lot longer and is more reliable than it was "back in the day".

Perhaps it's just easier for everyone to share their hard-luck stories now we have the wonderful internet?

Posted 6 months ago #
jimster - Member

Yes we are, and whilst we continue to pay for aforementioned parts they will keep failing after a couple of weeks - supply and demand and all that jazz.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Its the capitalist model that many companies especially japanese ones use. its about generating revenue.

Stuff like gear mechs I find old ones much much better

Posted 6 months ago #
binners - Member

Hora to the forum please. Repeat: Hora to the forum please.

Now.... would you like to discuss the issue of forks?

Posted 6 months ago #
Alejandro - Member

Yes.

Posted 6 months ago #
lunge - Member

Perhaps it's just easier for everyone to share their hard-luck stories now we have the wonderful internet?

This, we can hear people moan about stuf more now.

Now I find, in general, stuff now seems to be lighter, works better and lasts longer.

Posted 6 months ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

I got flamed a few months back for suggesting that on a new £1800 bike that:

The back brake should work
The BB should last more than a couple of months
The freehub should last longer than the first wet ride
That headsets should have some sort of seal on them
That hub bearings should last a ride or two.

Apparently £1800 is considdered bottom end/entry level now and I was wrong to expect the above.

You can still get 9s cassettes for £15 though and other brands make reliable parts so as long as you're not sucked in my the marketing and believe that SRAM-XX will actualy make you quicker the Saturday than just not eating fish+chips on the friday night then MTB can be cheep and reliable.

Posted 6 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Yes we are being fleeced. The relative cost of bike stuff has gone up loads, yet the actual quality gone down, in the 20+ years I've bin MTBing. Now paying what were XT prices just for Deore level kit.

Now I find, in general, stuff now seems to be lighter, works better and lasts longer.

Rot. I'd love to see stuff that lasts as long as 1990 Deore XT, or a UN52BB, 7-speed drivetrain, etc. Everything now is built to last just a year or two max until the latest 'must have new type shiny thing for to makes better' hits the shelves.

It's a popular lifestyle activity enjoyed by relatively affluent people, on average. The same people like to spend quite a bit on cars, clothes, watches etc. The clever marketing bods are tappin inot the deisre of such people to be able to show how successful/powerful they are by having spensive stuff. All plays on insecurities and that.

It's the same kind of thing why we see so much conspicuous consumption; designer label clothing, have to have latest gizmos, ultimately useless personality enhancers...

All coupled with rampant capitalism which needs to continue gorging itself on money. Aquire-Produce-Consume-Need even more to sate the constant hunger for material reassurance.

I blame Thatcher, quite frankly.

Posted 6 months ago #
kayak23 - Member

I think its that as we demand ever lighter and cheaper products, there has to be a compromise in there somewhere between weight, cost and durability.

Equipment is becoming more refined and more specialist, and perhaps the tradeoff is durability.

I'm sure we could all have frames, wheels and components that were cheap and lasted ages, but then we'd all only moan as they'd be made out of heavy or perhaps bad-looking materials.

Having said all that, I do agree that the costs of things are horrendous and a lot of it has to come down to folk just accepting it and having a lot of disposable income.

Posted 6 months ago #
tonyg2003 - Member

No. I have a 1991 bike in my garage that I paid £1150 way back when. Rigid, 24speed, canti brakes. The hubs and bottom bracket needed a service every couple of rides in the peak district, brake pads wore out after a couple of rides.

Now look at a modern full suspension mountain bike and apart from changing chains/cassettes at the same frequency, you get far more for less money.

Of course this is mainstream point. Buy the superlight wieght race only part, or any brand new tech and you may not get good longevity or robust performance.

Posted 6 months ago #
binners - Member

Anyone who's seen me ride will be gobsmacked I'm not regularly snapping frames in half and demolishing parts. I know I am! I'm like a pissed, three-legged rhino on a skateboard!

The one that really does wind me up is bottom brackets. basically they're disposable. That's fine if you're paying 'disposable' prices. Gggggrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Posted 6 months ago #
xiphon - Member

.... which explains why 99% of my kit is second hand, and several years old. Old technology is not useless, but costs considerably less!

My '6 inch travel All-Mountain bicycle' (so it sounds like the latest 2012 marketing!) is a Patriot '00 frame... and Fox 36 '05 forks...

My 'top-of-the-range race-ready hand-built full suspension DH bicycle' is a 222 '02, with Boxxer Race '04s. Brakes are Hope M6/M4 from '03 IIRC.

...So basically as good as a Five and a 224 (unless you're a world champ bicycle ninja)... but probably £5k cheaper?

You are only being fleeced if you let yourself.

Posted 6 months ago #
Rusty Spanner - Member

Cycling has become massively more popular and I think manufacturers are taking advantage to some extent.

Not a great deal we can do about it.

Certain companies are still very good value, Merlin and On-One.
Many Trek road bikes are cheper this year.

Older tech is cheaper - 8 speed bits still work and last well, as does square taper.

It's the price you pay for popularity

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

20 years ago, people made XC bikes and that was that. Now each company has to support huge amounts of R&D into different flavours of bikes, and that costs more.

Think about how much more choice we have, and how much better those bikes now are. Manufs used to be able to put together a standard looking frame, stick a group on it and that was a bike,

Posted 6 months ago #
joolsburger - Member

If you're wise and buy well proven stuff that is noted for it's longevity and durability then no you're not being ripped off.

I think that the vast majority of "it only lasted one wet ride" or "it's not working and I've barely used it" threads are often just down to high expectations (driven by cost) meeting poor maintenance or installation.

Also when something fails you tend to shout about it especially if it wasn't cheap. Another thing worth noting is that modern riding is much much harder on parts than it was years back riding a 150mm full susser at full tilt down a rocky trail is going to break stuff and simply wasn't possible (at those speeds for the average rider) on an 80mm hardtail.

Case in point is a HTII BB, no not as long lived as a Sq taper but shed loads lighter, easier to fit and remove and apparently stiffer cranks.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

BBs - a case in point. I have octalink on most of my bikes - lastes years with no issues - as such it did not make enough money for the manufacturers so a new one was developed with worse sealing and lifespan

Posted 6 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

20 years ago, people made XC bikes and that was that. Now each company has to support huge amounts of R&D into different flavours of bikes, and that costs more.

Disagree. Far more factories and improved automated processes means that stuff can be manufactured far more cheaply. Hence why so many companies have shifted production to the Far East.

I have a 1991 bike in my garage

Yes, you still have a 20-year old bike, which still works. People just don't expect anything to last that long any more.

Which is sad, cos it just leads to increasing amounts of natural resources being used, increasing amounts of poisonous nasties produced y the manufacturing process, and more war over said resources, just so's people can have the latest shiny thing.

There's a cost to our planet, and Humanity itself, that most folk never consider when getting their fix of consumerist soma...

Posted 6 months ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

TJ, I work in an engineering consultantcy, if we ever made a product that was deliberately shit we'd be in the same position as any parts manufacturer, people would just go elswhere for replacements.

See Race Face BB's for example, great cranks, but everyone ran them in Shimano BB's. Thus RF made no money from selling replacement BB's, whether they intended to or not! It's called capitalism, although you seem to sugest its a bad thing.

Posted 6 months ago #
andytherocketeer - Member

Apparently £1800 is considdered bottom end/entry level now and I was wrong to expect the above.

Are you telling me that my Cotic with full XT groupset is entry level? (must have cost approximately that).
Do all the normal people ride XX and XTR or something? That must make Ragley, OnOne etc, being a bit cheaper, a BSO!

Posted 6 months ago #
GaryLake - Member

Shimano Square taper used to last a year. Shimano HTII seems to last a year also. I ride a lot more now.

Few pairs of Fox forks and shocks, 2-3 years old, all fine.

Again, hardly from a lack of riding either.

Posted 6 months ago #
julianwilson - Member

I was just tyre kicking in a large big-name-own-brand bike store this morning and they had a slightly used (but ace condition) racey mtb for £4k. (was £6k new!) Yes, for a second hand one. It was dripping in Sram xx, but i suppose 2k is 'entry level for some folk if they are willing to part with 4-6 grand for a top flight bike. I remarked that I would do a lot better over a year's racing if i spent 2k on a bike and 2k on performance enhancing drugs.

Posted 6 months ago #
_tom_ - Member

You are only being fleeced if you let yourself.

+1 I paid £390 second hand for my Bullit, Boxxer, headset, cranks and a few other bits! It was definitely the oldest looking bike in Whistler though

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

tinas

are you really telling me that longevity is a part of the shimano design priorities?

Its cheap, functional and sufficient life and no repairability - hence shimano using a non available bearing size in their BBS

I have a 20 year old front mech on one of my bikes. LX. No play in the pivots at all. Later ones develop play much quicker

Posted 6 months ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

Are you telling me that my Cotic with full XT groupset is entry level? (must have cost approximately that).
Do all the normal people ride XX and XTR or something? That must make Ragley, OnOne etc, being a bit cheaper, a BSO!

Apparently so, it was news to me, my £275 Carrera Fury in 2001 had working brakes so I'd kind of expected that they were standard on new bikes.

Posted 6 months ago #
Lawmanmx - Member

Yea, we really are a stupid species (paying top wedge for cheap shoddy cack) are'nt we :O)

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

People just don't expect anything to last that long any more.

I think that's rubbish.

TJ - Octalink was dropped because the bearings didn't last very long on the whole (you seem to have been lucky). Shimano made almost everyone's bottom brackets anyway, so why would they spend time and money making a new one? HTII bearings are cheaper than BBs used to be.

There is more uber bling out there, but that's because people's disposable incomes have overall gone up over the decades. You can still get decent basic kit, and imo it's much better than it was. Full suspension bike for £700 quid anyone? Try that 15 years ago.

Posted 6 months ago #
xiphon - Member

I remarked that I would do a lot better over a year's racing if i spent 2k on a bike and 2k on performance enhancing drugs.

2k of amphetamines would be interesting...

Posted 6 months ago #
hilldodger - Member

joolsburger - Member
I think that the vast majority of "it only lasted one wet ride" or "it's not working and I've barely used it" threads are often just down to high expectations (driven by cost) meeting poor maintenance or installation

I hate having to say it, but +1

I've also wondered about any potential effects on components of racked bikes being exposed to motorway speed wind and vibrations....

Posted 6 months ago #
hilldodger - Member

TandemJeremy - Member
BBs - a case in point. I have octalink on most of my bikes - lastes years with no issues

Same as my correctly installed and maintained HT2 BBs - daily use, all weathers, at least 150km/week
2 years on an XT and counting

Posted 6 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Shimano Square taper used to last a year.

Hmm, not in my own (and many others I know) experience/s. I've got one here well over 10 years old, probbly even 15 or more. Anyone got a HT2 that's lasted as long?

are you really telling me that longevity is a part of the shimano design priorities?

Its cheap, functional and sufficient life and no repairability - hence shimano using a non available bearing size in their BBS

I have a 20 year old front mech on one of my bikes. LX. No play in the pivots at all. Later ones develop play much quicker

TJ's right, TINAS. We've both bin riding a good bit longer than you, and have the benefit of historical evidence...

New stuffs just don't last anywhere near as long as it used to. Shimano freehubs, anyone?

Posted 6 months ago #
joao3v16 - Member

Bikes are becoming more expensive every year

Mostly due to the rising cost of materials & unfavourable (for the UK) exchange rates.

The world all going wrong in 2008 exacerbated this.

Posted 6 months ago #
fasthaggis - Member

These days I think a lot of people ,are riding more ,and some are riding tougher terrain .
Couple that with a bit of low maintenance, and it's not surprising that stuff can fail quicker .
Oh ,and there is the other thing that some people are just hard on kit .

As for being fleeced ,it depends how much you have to spend on toys.

It's down to the have and the have nots .

I am with Elf .. It's all Thatchers fault .

Posted 6 months ago #
seosamh77 - Member

My stuff breaks because I abuse it, I've no problem with that really.

I bought a £700 bike 5 years ago, and bought an £800 bargain this year, in between on maintenance I've probably spent maybe 300-400 a year(at a guess).

No really a great deal considering. I think you just have to come up with a number in your head and stick to that, you'll find an option that will suit your availability of spare cash. You can only really gte fleeced for the amount you are willing to spend.

I could do what I do for alot less, but I don't really fancy 200-300 quid bikes.

Saying that though I won't step up to full suss as it'll cost me alot more than i'm willing to spend(neither have I ever had the need for it mind).

Posted 6 months ago #
ianv - Member

Mostly due to the rising cost of materials & unfavourable (for the UK) exchange rates.

This is a bit of a smokescreen IMO. Look at motorbikes, much more materials used, much more R&D involved, mostly made outside the UK yet nowhere near the level of inflation seen in bikes. You can bike a moto trials bike with Marzocchi forks for less than the cost of a push bike.

Posted 6 months ago #