Does not compute
Does not compute
I used to work with a lad who programmed robots in our factory. 40k ish a year I believe. Sitting in the canteen late one evening he worked out he was averaging £7 an hour. He was working Saturdays and silly hours in the week.
I was a lowly FLT driver at the time and was on £1.10 an hour more.!
Unpaid overtime is a con. Especially when they start to expect silly hours.
The odd hour or two a week is nowt, more is taking the p!ss.
But I bet he earns a whole lot more now.
I used to work in the civil service where every hour was counted and you got flexi or got paid for. Reality was that nothing ever got done.
Now I work in the real world, put in the hours I need to and acheive about ten times as much.
No where else in europe is this the norm.
Despite the Spanish reputation for siestas etc. - which may or may not be true in the trades - in offices long hours are pretty much expected.
I am salaried with a nominal 37.5 hour week and I guess I put in more than 5 hours extra. Or rather I have cut back to 5 hours extra! Companies rely on staff working for 'free' to reduce their costs some of which may come back to the staff. In the current economic climate very little comes back - in our place we have a wage freeze (and have had for the past 18 months) and no bonuses.
On one project I worked on we did a lot of planning and got everyone down to have no more than 35 hours per week of planned work. Everyone worked less hours but we delivered more because people could focus on what they needed to do. To often we work long hours because we are overloaded with unreasonable demands/time scales.
The other issue about long hours is that often becomes a case of 'presentisim' i.e. just being in the office to be seen. Totally pointless.
I've been reading this with some interest, last year when I got promoted I signed a contract that said I would work whatever hours were required to do the job, this week its been 9-5, most weeks its never out of the 8-6 range. Occasionally its manic and I'll work longer hours, maybe 4 weeks a year, always seems to be when the quarterly financial plan needs to be submitted. I just get up and go when I feel I should and being a good delegator and being able to say no does help, and surprisingly can earn you respect.
Its all about balance, I don't expect to earn at the level I do for ever so I am willing to work a bit harder for it so I can accrue shares, cash and final salary pension, these are rare in todays economy.
Maybe they have me by the balls, but at the moment it feels nice as they aren't pulling to hard on them
I gave up the paid bit of overtime 8 years ago when I accepted a promotion. My contract has no specified hours.
Sometimes I work 20 or 30 hours in the weekend on top of my week.
Sometimes I skip out at 3 having come in at 10 - not often to be fair though.
They pay me reasonably well but not spectacularly.
I make sure I see my wife and son.
I enjoy it and probably wouldn't have it any other way.
If I stopped liking it, I'd get out.
I have basic hours of 37.5 and do between 7.5 -12.5 on top of that generally. The most I could do would be 15 due to factory opening hours. Occasionally we'll work a Saturday morning. It's all paid at 1.35 unless I work Saturdays which is 1.5. There are staff at our place who don't get O/T, basically production staff are O/T and office staff are not.
Have to say, I've never worked at a place where there was much of an O/T culture. I do loads more than others in my department, but then I do run it so that's to be expected. I had a bit of a grumble to get a bit more out of people, but it's always seen as optional. If I need more than 40 hours O/T in total each week, I'd be asking for another engineer.
Stoner - Im in a similar profession to you, but earning my salary from a big consultancy. I regularly work unpaid overtime for a number of reasons, mainly though because of the dwindling supply of work, (many of our clients have either gone bust, stopped spending, stopped outsourcing or slashed our fees), meaning that we all have to work much harder just to maintain any form of equilibrium! (lower fees, same work = less time to deliver) Despite this, its a long way off from being France Telecom stress levels.
Anybody in my position knows what they are letting themselves in for, and accepts that sometimes you will have to put the hours in, but makes a conscious decision that the returns justify it. If I wanted a guaranteed 9-4 with early Friday finishes, flexitime, easytime, don't-feel-like-working-today-time, more holidays, paternity leave etc Id go and work for a Local Authority.
If I wanted a guaranteed 9-4 with early Friday finishes, flexitime, easytime, don't-feel-like-working-today-time, more holidays, paternity leave etc Id go and work for a Local Authority.
Its not all rosy in public sectorland either....
The on-call rates for non-doctors in the NHS these days are ridiculous. I get 38p an hour (honestly! its a fixed percentage of my hourly rate) for being on call which involves taking phone calls, making clinical decisions, being available (and close enough) to drop everything and rush in to work at a moment's notice. Thankfully the weekends where the phone does not stop ringing are fewer than the quiet ones for me, but 38p an hour for no riding, drinking or even being on my own with the children (in case I have to rush off and leave them) is a complete pisstake.
after a certain grade in my nhs trust you can't claim for overtime at all and you are expected at meetings at 8am, and you finish when you finish not at 5pm. My boss and his boss above him both put in 50+ hours a week and they get a salary and that is all. Even near the bottom of the NHS foodchain the amount of unclaimed time from working through breaks and staying on late is startling in some teams. We certainly don't clock in and clock out like when I had a punchcard for it!
Always, welcome to the leisure and tourism industry.
deadlydarcy - Member
I did not even get to the first question.
I believe you man, but honestly now, how did you actually phrase the "getting up and walking out bit"? I only ask because I had something vaguely similar happen me once in a job interview.
When they explained what they wanted I stood up and said well you dont want me as i wont work if you wont pay me and left. I did have a job at the time was not desperate for it and it was only about 1k more than I was on. They did look gobsmacked though. I know people who work there now and they b0ll0ck people for not coming in at 8 even though they dont get paid till 9. and same if they try and leave at 5.
If people want to work loads then that is their choice but as it is not for me at all. I am not lazy but i am not working for free. 9-5 hour for lunch.
I'm reading this with interest. I've never worked in a job where I hadn't been asked to opt out of the EU Working Time Directive. I started in journalism and moved to analysis a couple of years ago.
I'm quite happy to do overtime unpaid - but I'd better be rewarded for it in some way or another, or I'm off. The last job but one was an example; I'd moved internally to a different magazine, got on the wrong side of someone and been sidelined. I started working my contracted hours and did a hell of a lot of sailing for eighteen months on a race boat, working enough in the week to keep the job ticking over and support my co-workers. Along the way, I met the girl I'm going to marry. At the end of it, I set myself a target of getting a job in six months, or going freelance by a certain date. I got the job.
The job I'm in now has overtime - I've been working since 8am this morning, and will be going back to do another couple of hours after this break. The last month has been 80 hour weeks. But I do all this from home, and I know that once the project I'm on is done in a couple of days, I will be allowed to go back to doing the hours I want until the next big kerfuffle kicks off in December. No questions asked, as long as I do my bit and a little more in the mean time. If you regard unpaid overtime as slave labour, you'll become a slave. If you regard it as part of a covenant, and have a marketable skill, then it becomes something else entirely.
if you're scared not to work unpaid overtime under pressure, you're either not appreciated sufficiently or you're shit at your job. Only one person can change both situations.
Samuri, you're the soul of brevity. Well put.
I always note hours and always take it off in lieu; I have no worries about getting things done and doing the time when needed, but I'm having it back at some point.
If the company had to make staff redundant, they would. If they had to cut back my hours, they would. As such, I see no reason to do them any favours they wouldn't do for you.
TBH, if you have too much work, they have too few staff; them being tight is why you are working unpaid time. Not on. Unless of course it's cos you're posting on here rather than working. ahem...
Contracted to work 35hr week but averaged out over 8 weeks, some weeks i work 40hrs and get paid for 35, some weeks i work 24hrs and get paid for 35! If i work atleast 15 mins overtime i get paid the full hour, can be forced to work an emergency hour at the end of my shift, but this is only usually down to sickness and as i work alone most of the time its just for arranging relief etc! If i'm asked to work over at the end of my shift i can also claim for a meal too! No unpaid O/T here, got the bosses by the short and curlies most of the time as most of them can't do my job, and if i go home the trains will stop!
drac - you're a paramedic, not a trainee accountant. Its completely incomparable.
Your right but we come under the same regulations, we didn't get paid for running overtime not so many years ago but thanks to European laws they now have to pay us.
I see why people do it and if they want to to progress it's there choice but the point is you can not be forced to do it. Yes I know people will claim "oh but they will make life difficult if I don't" yeah they might but again that is illegal.
A surprisingly irrelevant one.
Bad pay, expected overtime and an irrelevant industry....games developer?
We were recently told by one of our superiors that they didn't give a shit about whether we had families or not, unless we needed to "shit, shower or shave" we should be at our desks. This is after a year of nearly the entire team doing massive overtime. Although on the plus side, we do get time-in-lieu if we do three hours or more, so many companies give nothing.
I've never done a salaried job where I didn't need to do some (unpaid) overtime. However, the one job where I ended up doing 10-12 hour days for 20 odd days on the trot (big project) I got out of as soon as I could.
The only answer is to be self employed - then when you end up doing the odd 18 hour day, you feel a sense of satisfaction for having fit 2 days work into 1 day.
Not putting down people who do unpaid overtime and feel that they have to, but many of the arguements are the same as those put forward by workers not using safety equipment/procedures in building, engineering and factories in the 80's.
If we ask for hard hats and gloves we will be seen as pussies by our colleagues, management won't be impressed and we will be ousted from our jobs.
If we want dangerous machinery isolated before we work on it then it will cost time/money and employers will be unhappy.
As well as the macho image of doing dangerous work with no care for personal safety.
A bit of unpaid when necessary is OK, but shedloads week in week out - no.
I don't even do paid overtime any more. I wasn't doing loads, but working a day two weekends in three as overtime plus the hectic nature of my job (and a few outside factors) resulted in what I can only describe as a minor nervous breakdown. Two months signed off, and questioning my own sanity at times, resulted in a self-imposed overtime ban. I don't miss the extra cash, as it was only being spent on 'toys' that it turned out didn't make me as happy as having my weekends free.
One of my bosses has 'pressured' me to return to the overtime rota, but I told him in no uncertain times I would not tolerate being bullied and he backed off.
Screw that for a game.
We got a salary freeze last year but they reduced our working hours from 40 to 37.5. We're salaried, we don't clock and we're expected to get the job done. Oh and they've made loads of people redundant this year despite increasing workloads. Suffice to say a lot of people are waiting for the new year when I think there will be a mass exodus to other companies. No doubt similar rubbish conditions but at least it will be for a couple of grand more.
"told by one of our superiors that they didn't give a shit about whether we had families or not"
Unacceptable bullying. He should be disciplined. I assume you have some sort of personnel people? There is a statutory grievance procedure. If several of you collectively complain then he can be corrected without much risk to yourselves.
It's not just the people that suffer in this sort of environment, I expect the quality of the work suffers too. It's not good business.
I'm sure there have be proven studies that workng over 'x' number of hours per week actually makes you less productive, and I'm sure its quite low ie about 50 hours.
Having worked in both private and now public sector there does appear to be a cut off in all industrys at which point you stop having a life and start becoming a non human. For me I think I have reached that level where I still work 'normal' hours 37-40 and still have a life, as has been said above work much more than that and whats the point of being human?
As to unpaid overtime, just about every hospital doctor now has to work unpaid overtime. The government forced them to sign up to 48hrs per week, but didnt then take on additional docs to fill the gaps. So they know full well the dr's will now work unpaid for the extra 30 or so extra hours they do a week.
I've been at places where a lot of people worked 12 hour days (doing computer programming). They didn't get any more actual work done than the people with kids who probably worked 9:30 - 5 at the most. I always worked pretty much my contract hours, maybe slightly below. As long as I got the work done, no one minded and they kept giving me pay rises. I think in a lot of jobs, people think that by working long hours, they'll get on better, but in reality, if you work more efficiently and do the same in less hours, you can get on just the same as the stay late types.
Right now, I work on a pretty flexible basis - some days I work a full day, some days I don't, this Monday / Tuesday, I was off doing work stuff which involved a bunch of travel & doing external work, I guess I did way more than 2 days work, although I did get to ride a load of rollercoasters as part of my work, which was nice. I think I probably average out to a 40 hour week or whatever my contract says, but it varies very much depending on what needs to be done and when - if something is being done at an event, or for a particular deadline, then I'll work way longer, if things are a bit slack, I'll do less work.
I'm sure there have be proven studies that workng over 'x' number of hours per week actually makes you less productive, and I'm sure its quite low ie about 50 hours.
I think it was 10 hours a day was the break-even point where your productivity goes back to the same as an 8 hour day. Above that, you're less productive than doing an 8 hour day. The study is referenced in a very good book about software development called 'The Mythical Man Month', which I don't have to hand right now, so I can't check the exact numbers.
The work culture in Denmark is flexible to fit around the family since most families have 2 full time working parents and child care closes at 5. That means that we can and have to work from home sometimes. The problem comes when you spend all of your time at home either dealing with kids or working and have no time off at all.
My previous job ended up with me working every hour of the day that I wasn't asleep or feeding/bathing/putting to bed the kids so in the end I left (there were a bunch of other things too).
Now I have enough flexibility that I do long hours when needed and take some time back when there is less to do. I'm happy with that, there is mutual respect and trust with my employer that (other than our time registration) we are trusted to manage our own time.
all the time. It's pretty much the norm for most jobs, isn't it?
Not in my experience, Andy, and it shouldn't be, either.
Staying to get something that absolutely positively has to be done for a deadline, fine, if it isn't all the time, but routine everyday unpaid overtime being expected, that is either a sign that the management aren't doing their jobs, or there is a crappy working culture.
I wouldn't work extra without pay if I did it would cost me a fortune every year
[As to unpaid overtime, just about every hospital doctor now has to work unpaid overtime. The government forced them to sign up to 48hrs per week, but didnt then take on additional docs to fill the gaps. So they know full well the dr's will now work unpaid for the extra 30 or so extra hours they do a week.]
Over the past ten years of working in the NHS I like many others have lost count of the numerous unpaid hours.
Rarely was/is it because someone is forcing you to do it but more commonly done to finish something you've started or as a sense of duty/care to the patient. Did I ever mind? ......rarely as we have always been reasonably well paid.
Then as mentioned August 2009 brought significant changes to the working week with the implementation of European working rules which enforces a maximum of 48 hrs a week and strict rest requirements. Paradoxically this is a disaster for training and experience. For example because I worked "nights" at the weekend i am not allowed to go to work this week........so i went of my own volition to work this am (unpaid) to gain specific experience. The pay is much less and some specialites work a significant number of extra hours for the reasons mentioned above. I imagine these "free hours" based on good will gradually be eroded away. At the risk of sounding like an old fart (only mid 30s and still very green behind ears in medical terms!) most of the newly qualified docs already religiously clock in/out and leave plenty at their backside for others to clean up.
This was all supposedly done to improve patient care..........
Now patients can look forward to, in any 24hr period, meeting multiple doctors who will never know the patients as well as they would have done if they had been there for 24hrs. Far more mistakes are/will be made from a lack of continuity rather than from a tired doctor.
Watch this space for moral in NHS training docs to significantly deteriorate over the next few years not to mention a severe deficiency in experience/training due to the reduced hours.
Apologies, this is a slightly incoherent/non-specific waffle........just another perspective on unpaid work i guess.
Damn I feel lucky here. No overtime and enforced tea breaks morning & afternoon. Mainly because we do production on site too.
Like many others have pointed out - if occasional overtime has become standard practice, your company can't properly manage their workload.
If your boss expects you to work unpaid overtime He/She is stealing off you pure and simple!!! Its got to come back to you somehow, time in lue bonuses etc. I do feel genuinly sorry for people who are trapped in such a situation. Its the main reason I could never give up being self employed.
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