While this is correct, the career structure of people doing silly hours in banks, law firms, accountancy etc etc are typically doing so because they will be cut into the profits after a while if they work hard enough, at which point other drones will be working unpaid for their benefit.

While this is correct, the pyramidal nature of company hierarchies, the reality of company restructurings and redundancies, the lack of career drive and/or ability of the 'drones' dictates that only a few will achieve that position in most organisations- though I imagine yours is probably a bit of an exception.

By the way, do you guys in law firms bill for time on stw- or is that an urban myth? 😀

Ever see your kids? Ever get to ride a bike?

I do, as I "work" two days a week. Dont worry, Ill hit 100 🙂
But I appreciate your concern.

I cant think of any company Ive worked in where anyone above secretary has seriously questioned the hours they work in comparison to the hours that might be legally required in their contract thanks to the EU working time directive (which was frankly written for the shop floor, not the office suite)

Im afraid it says much more about your lack of working experience if you really believe that anyone who wants a successful career in the professions if they were to go about their business with an eye on the clock. At least until they have forged a niche where they can take much greater control of their hours as I have.

Ourmaninthenorth.

Great post and a great answer to those who work this unpaid overtime.

Apart from anything else it is again proven that working long hours reduces your productivity

Stoner – the point is that if you all refused to do this then the companies would have to find a different way of organising work – and working time directive was always intended for white collar jobs as well.

No where else in europe is this the norm.

on a serious note .when i was a postie some of our blokes fell for the job and finish scam .how it worked get your round done and go home.then people started going in 30 minutes early using their cars and running round.now royal mail want to use those incentive speeds to plan new rounds meaning they will be doing and are doing up to half as much work again for the same money .
i could see it coming tried to warn them but it fell on deaf ears .not the reason i left btw i wasn't on job and finish.

and therein lies the problem – prisoners dilemma.

It only takes one person electing to work unpaid hours to appear as a beacon of industriousness (and I agree certainly not productivity – which is the reason I left employment – I dont agree with face time being rewarded over productivity) to bring the system back to its natural level of a facetime arms race.

Just because its wrong doesnt mean the opposite is either right or acheiveable.

No where else in europe is this the norm.

actually in France and Germany the same underlying problem exists in the professions as here. The "lazy" french thing really only applies to the shopfloor.

"Work To Live"
NOT
"Live To Work"

No where else in europe is this the norm.

What Stoner said. All my European colleagues work v hard (+ long hours – not the same thing), esp. the French.

TJ – have you actually worked with European professionals or are you just guessing in the face of your lack of experience outside the ward?

My understanding but not from direct knowledge. I have known some professionals in Germany who where appalled at teh long working hours in the UK and would never do it. I am prepared to accept that you will know more of this however.

As I have said several times I have worked in the private sector as well managing a multimillion pound business. I refused to let people work long hours as their productivity suffered.

About 10% over is expected.

I am a teacher, I work silly hours, I work a good proportion of holidays (and I am certainly not one of the most industrious) but it is stuff that needs to happen and it can be a rewarding job when it all works.
EDIT-Gary_C, yes.

The other reason of course that some of us are in the office a lot is working across timezones. I quite often have to do a conference call with people in the BVI. They don't wake up until my lunchtime, so if I call them first thing in their morning and make them do something it's not going to be done until my evening, at which point I have to look at it and get back to them on it so I can keep them in the office late dealing with my comments. I may easily stay around until I've been in the office for 12 hours. The end result is that I've got something done pretty quickly in absolute terms, although the productivity will not be very high. I'm not complaining of my lot particularly, although OMITN's post above is an excellent commentary. 🙂

I work an awful lot of hours.

But I wouldn't do one extra hour over my 37.5 if I didn't get paid overtime for it. I keep wishing work would say I shouldn't be claiming overtime and would hand my mobile phone and laptop over in a second. No problem, lets see who gives in first.

Great post and a great answer to those who work this unpaid overtime.

Perhaps only because I'm prepared to say it here. As io said, it's not the sort of thing lawyers will – or even can – admit to openly, and certainly not amongst their peers.

As and when I can find an escape route from private practice – where this culture exists strongest – I suspect I won't work any less hard. I don't mind hard work per se – my real issue is with the pyramidical nature of professional organisaitons, and the fact that one can flog oneself without ever getting the jam that was promised tomorrow.

The difficulty with assuming that an organisation will just throw bodies at something in order to get the hours per individual down to an arbitrary level is one of profitability. Because professional services firms are owned by the people who run them – the partners, getting the slice of the pie (and sharing in the downside risk; I'll give them that) – they do so with an eye to what makes the job profitable. Most law firms operate at a profitability of around 25% (though Slaughters does very nicely at around 45%). They are high margin operations. But, they employ (relatively) expensive people. The top City firms pay their newly qualified lawyers £65k upwards. This rises year on year. So, and associate of, say 6 years post qualified experience, will be on over £100k. Seems a lot, but for that s/he has to be constantly available to work and work hard – though I'm a regional hick, I'm treated the same, but for about 40-50% less cash (who's the idiot?). That's the deal. If, however, in order to get the work done, three or four times as many of these people were required to do the work, the business model collapses – it cannot sustain that level of profitability. In fact, it doesn't take that much to make a piece of work non-profitable.

And so, the expectation is that, in order to maintain profitability, the pips have to be squeezed. The deal, when you get over the newly qualified shock of what is required of you, is that you work your balls off for several years and then you get invited to share in that pie.

Of course, law firms have an attrition rate – around 20% p.a. is expected, I believe (which is why so many lawyers have had the sack during the recession; because if they won't leave through choice, you have to make them) – and this is part of how only a handful of those starting out at a the bottom make it to the lowest rung of the top table. At that point, tthe slice of the pie is relatively small, but keep going and you can make good cash.

There are plenty of people willing to sacrifice home life and health for this – across the professions – because it appeals to their egos. "Greed is, for want of a better word, good", to quote Gordon (Gekko).

For me, though, I'll take things more slowly. I used to be an 80 hour a week person, and where has it got me? Several years in, and still earning less than a newly qualified London lawyer. So, time for a step sideways, and a bit of risk. And maybe return to private practice later.

Of course, I speak as a disenchanted professional. I've no idea what it's like being a supermarket manager, or currency trader. Or oil rig worker, or fireman. Or shop fitter, or care worker….

I work alot of overtime, but definately not unpaid. Time and a half after 17:15 and before 8:45, double bubble at weekends. If they stopped paying overtime I would work my basic contracted 37.5 hours per week.

Rather than pick on TJ, sorry TJ, my experience has some similarities to OMITN as well as the kind of differences youd expect given the different industry: Real Estate.

In the big property practices it was transactions and face time that were rewarded. This kind of made sense in a rising market, but only becuase any dimwit with a double-barrelled name could sell a building up until last year.

Since I was an egghead, I actually made deals happen even if I didnt DO the deal, but never got the recognition for it. One bonus round I learnt that some dumbnut who couldnt us e calculator was going to get a sizeable bonus because hed been "working hard". Yep, you have to work hard when you're thick and it takes you a week to do what someone with some skill would do in a few hours. I, on the other hand would get a small bonus because I kept leaving the office at 4pm (usually used to start at 7am – I work best in the mornings – but of course the tutters dont turn up until 9am so they dont do the maths). So in this world that rewarded stupidity and fortune over skill and productivity I went freelance to sell my service direct to my old companys clients as well as back to them ironically. Best thing I ever did.

I now work half the hours I used to (or indeed was contracted to 🙂 ) for twice as much income.

But to pull that off you do need something to sell, and much of business is made of people who do not have any unique selling points except the fact that theyve always been there.

Well reading this thread, it's quite clear that I should stop whingiing about Engineers not being treated with the same respect as other professions – whilst I do sometimes work long hours or spend long days away from home doing customer visits or installations I get paid overtime if I work it (that or TOIL). Not just my "cushy" ex government company either – having visited and worked at plenty of other companies, the engineers there don't do silly long days either (normally if I'm away working long days to get the job done so I can go home I'll be one of the last in in the evening!) Obviously we don't get paid the same rate as lawyers etc., but I think I'll take my life thanks – was feeling rather down this week, and it's been very uplifting reading this and realising what rubbish lives other people have working silly hours (would still love to have Stoner's hours, but probably need to come up with some big idea to manage that!)

My shift plan was changed and the management turned me from an I'll get it done (coz I get every other Friday off) type of guy working silly hours, into, I'll get it done but I will get the extra in OT or lieu. In fact it started off with just lieu time which gave me more than every other Friday off. I now claim for every hour of OT I work as it has impinged on my work life balance (I don't earn enough to make that worthwhile). Now which party have lost out to that scheme?

I might become a librarian… I just like being around books, overtime or not. 😀

That's my cardigan, ta.

When I worked at Thales with paid OT, the expectation was unlimited and it did me in! So generally I'm OK with unpaid OT as long as it does not get silly:

1) I need down-time for my head and loved ones
2) Because it's unpaid, it generally limits the demands to <10% OT
3) Work is bursty i.e. between months of 40 hours to months of 50-60 hours
4) I'm in a professional job and get paid OKish
5) I slack-off when I can to read this bl00dy forum, drink coffee, chat etc

It got silly since Nov 2008 but it took until May 2009 for the company to realise and put an OT scheme in place to count it up. They have agreed to pay: actual hours – normal hours+10% until the push is over. For me it's already over and I'm back to 40 hours and trying to take the rest of my holiday allowance before year-end.

IMO, the people who should be paid OT, when wpork demands it and not all the time, are those on low salaries.

the number of hours i work in any week affects my pay not a jot. pay is also in no way performance related.

i knew this when i signed up. i do get to ride my bike a lot and also go to some cool places.

there are many ways to go about the work life balance, but we don't all get it right.

Loads of extra hours here
those who don't end up looking for a new job pretty quickly
helyh suffering – check
no social life – check
miserable f"ck – check

Iam contracted to 38 hrs a week hours or to suit the needs of the business. I usually work 7.30 till 5.30 mon to thurs and till 4 on fri with 1/2 hr lunch. If you go at 4 it is seen as going early and aweekness in your character. If I work any more than 46 hrs a week I get an o/t rate. For the last 6 months I have been doing 46 hrs a weeek but for 20% salary reduction hard times etc. Last week I approached my boss to tell him as they can no longer afford to employ me full time I would be taking 1 day a week off to seek other employment to top up my salary. Hey presto we have a meeting the same afternoon and they announce we are going back to full salaries. 😀 wish I had mentioned it sooner.

Ach, I work late when I'm needed. Sometimes it's manic sometimes it's not. Although I don't get paid it is appreciated and *usually* noticed. I'll be getting my lost holiday given back to me. I don't mind doing it and super late nights are rare though I have the challenge of spearheading our operations in the far east but I have to report in to east coast USA so time differences always pose a challenge.

What I dislike, and thankfully it doesn't happen at my company, are those workplaces where it's expected that you stay well beyond your contracted hours, even if you have nothing to do just to be seen to be "putting in the hours". The kind of place where people look at you with amazement if you actually take a lunchbreak or if you've got your coat on at 5pm and you're out the door. I've experienced that in two workplaces and it's laughably bad. One guy used to hang around till 8pm every night and he was regularly caught sitting playing solitaire on his PC, but he just wanted to be the guy that always worked late!

I have no idea what hours I work above my contract – 6-10/week maybe

I also don't believe it's unpaid, I do very well out of our performance bonus, £12k this year
I don't do well because I work extra hours, it's because I get the job done

We have a great way of paying the bonus out, the boss gets so many 'units' of bonus to dish out each year – it's up to her who gets what
Slackers may only get a few, I got 24 this year

Sure, did for years. Don't so often these days but if something needs doing you do it.

My experience of european colleagues was they did the same. This is working for an american company though so possibly a different working culture. Americans though… kinl they work hard! Make us 12 hours a day folk look like slackers.

I work loads of overtime without pay. Construction industry. Small company. Work needs doing to deadlines, if it aint done then the company suffers and I'm out of a job.

No margins in the industry at the moment (suicide tendering has firmly returned), so dont expect it.

We have a great way of paying the bonus out, the boss gets so many 'units' of bonus to dish out each year – it's up to her who gets what
Slackers may only get a few, I got 24 this year

Yes, that's the same as my company and the effort you put in is noticed and rewarded accordingly

We have a great way of paying the bonus out, the boss gets so many 'units' of bonus to dish out each year – it's up to her who gets what

Interesting. Of course, where I work, because there is a dilemma between overall organisational strategy, and local empire building this might not be so succesful (for me).

I fear much of the issue comes from the legacy that there are almost as many UK offices as there are in Europe and Asia.

In effect, though I do work that's entirely in line with what the firm wants to do overall – and the bigiwgs have been sending me nice messages about it recently – the people who make decisions about my career and the local hacks for whom the immediate (Manchester/North West) market is their priority. Ergo, I'd get no bonus under that scheme.

Hence the disillusionment.

unpaid overtime?

Does not compute

I used to work with a lad who programmed robots in our factory. 40k ish a year I believe. Sitting in the canteen late one evening he worked out he was averaging £7 an hour. He was working Saturdays and silly hours in the week.

I was a lowly FLT driver at the time and was on £1.10 an hour more.!

Unpaid overtime is a con. Especially when they start to expect silly hours.

The odd hour or two a week is nowt, more is taking the p!ss.

But I bet he earns a whole lot more now.

I used to work in the civil service where every hour was counted and you got flexi or got paid for. Reality was that nothing ever got done.

Now I work in the real world, put in the hours I need to and acheive about ten times as much.

No where else in europe is this the norm.

Despite the Spanish reputation for siestas etc. – which may or may not be true in the trades – in offices long hours are pretty much expected.

I am salaried with a nominal 37.5 hour week and I guess I put in more than 5 hours extra. Or rather I have cut back to 5 hours extra! Companies rely on staff working for 'free' to reduce their costs some of which may come back to the staff. In the current economic climate very little comes back – in our place we have a wage freeze (and have had for the past 18 months) and no bonuses.

On one project I worked on we did a lot of planning and got everyone down to have no more than 35 hours per week of planned work. Everyone worked less hours but we delivered more because people could focus on what they needed to do. To often we work long hours because we are overloaded with unreasonable demands/time scales.

The other issue about long hours is that often becomes a case of 'presentisim' i.e. just being in the office to be seen. Totally pointless.

I've been reading this with some interest, last year when I got promoted I signed a contract that said I would work whatever hours were required to do the job, this week its been 9-5, most weeks its never out of the 8-6 range. Occasionally its manic and I'll work longer hours, maybe 4 weeks a year, always seems to be when the quarterly financial plan needs to be submitted. I just get up and go when I feel I should and being a good delegator and being able to say no does help, and surprisingly can earn you respect.

Its all about balance, I don't expect to earn at the level I do for ever so I am willing to work a bit harder for it so I can accrue shares, cash and final salary pension, these are rare in todays economy.

Maybe they have me by the balls, but at the moment it feels nice as they aren't pulling to hard on them

I gave up the paid bit of overtime 8 years ago when I accepted a promotion. My contract has no specified hours.

Sometimes I work 20 or 30 hours in the weekend on top of my week.

Sometimes I skip out at 3 having come in at 10 – not often to be fair though.

They pay me reasonably well but not spectacularly.

I make sure I see my wife and son.

I enjoy it and probably wouldn't have it any other way.

If I stopped liking it, I'd get out.

I have basic hours of 37.5 and do between 7.5 -12.5 on top of that generally. The most I could do would be 15 due to factory opening hours. Occasionally we'll work a Saturday morning. It's all paid at 1.35 unless I work Saturdays which is 1.5. There are staff at our place who don't get O/T, basically production staff are O/T and office staff are not.

Have to say, I've never worked at a place where there was much of an O/T culture. I do loads more than others in my department, but then I do run it so that's to be expected. I had a bit of a grumble to get a bit more out of people, but it's always seen as optional. If I need more than 40 hours O/T in total each week, I'd be asking for another engineer.

Stoner – Im in a similar profession to you, but earning my salary from a big consultancy. I regularly work unpaid overtime for a number of reasons, mainly though because of the dwindling supply of work, (many of our clients have either gone bust, stopped spending, stopped outsourcing or slashed our fees), meaning that we all have to work much harder just to maintain any form of equilibrium! (lower fees, same work = less time to deliver) Despite this, its a long way off from being France Telecom stress levels.

Anybody in my position knows what they are letting themselves in for, and accepts that sometimes you will have to put the hours in, but makes a conscious decision that the returns justify it. If I wanted a guaranteed 9-4 with early Friday finishes, flexitime, easytime, don't-feel-like-working-today-time, more holidays, paternity leave etc Id go and work for a Local Authority. 😉

If I wanted a guaranteed 9-4 with early Friday finishes, flexitime, easytime, don't-feel-like-working-today-time, more holidays, paternity leave etc Id go and work for a Local Authority.

Its not all rosy in public sectorland either….

The on-call rates for non-doctors in the NHS these days are ridiculous. I get 38p an hour (honestly! its a fixed percentage of my hourly rate) for being on call which involves taking phone calls, making clinical decisions, being available (and close enough) to drop everything and rush in to work at a moment's notice. Thankfully the weekends where the phone does not stop ringing are fewer than the quiet ones for me, but 38p an hour for no riding, drinking or even being on my own with the children (in case I have to rush off and leave them) is a complete pisstake.

after a certain grade in my nhs trust you can't claim for overtime at all and you are expected at meetings at 8am, and you finish when you finish not at 5pm. My boss and his boss above him both put in 50+ hours a week and they get a salary and that is all. Even near the bottom of the NHS foodchain the amount of unclaimed time from working through breaks and staying on late is startling in some teams. We certainly don't clock in and clock out like when I had a punchcard for it!