For instance if your on a salary, and it includes "limited overtime where necessary"?

Working as a bin man is looking more attractive every day!

I don't, but have done in the past and I currently work in an industry that expects it and I manage to make myself very unpopular by not doing so.

No never, whats the point if you dont get paid for it?

I don't really count my hours
Some days I'm finished @4 others it's 8

And for reference, if I played the game and did the overtime they expect, I would have been doing 12 hour days, 7 days a week for over a year.

For no extra pay on top of my sub 20k salary.

So you can see why I might not give a shit about my unpopularity 🙂

I once arrived at work on monday morning and wondered why my colleagues were already in. They were still in work from the previous sunday, and didn't leave till monday lunchtime.

Would someone wheel in samuri please.

I finish when I finish most days. Bit better now I'm self employed but generally there's no such thing as "over time" in my profession – it's just assumed you'll do it.

No way.

jackthedog – what industry are you in?

Nope,hardly ever do paid ot so there's no chance of me doing it for jack

A surprisingly irrelevant one.

In my opinion, and experience, in the "professions", regardless of what it might say in a contract, you are expected to work the hours neccessary, and no less than 9-5 regarldess of need.

That may mean that you work 70+ hours in a week, it may be only 40, but almost never less.

When someone says they're on a "salary" of, say £50k and someone pipes up to say they get paid a lot, it can break back to as a little as £15p/h – hardly massive although, yes, greater than the minimum wage obviously. There's no such thing as overtime.

For the record I work freelance now. and every hour gets paid for 🙂

Yes.

For example, I started work at 8am a week past on Monday.

I was still working at 2am on Tuesday morning.

No extra pay. No time in lieu.

Actually, I had to take a day off suddenly last week due to a family illness. I was back in the next day. Yesterday when I looked at my holiday planner I noticed my manager has used one of my holiday days instead of marking me down as off for personal reasons.

Unreal.

So I worked an extra 11 unpaid hours on the Monday yet I'm forced to use a days holiday for being off for a good reason. 😆

I work in academia where it's pretty much the norm. You don't have to – but you can bet that everyone else will – so they'll have the papers published, the funding coming in etc… If I did 9-5 I'd be screwed. That said, it's still fairly fleixble – i can choose when to work too many hours!

So I worked an extra 11 unpaid hours on the Monday yet I'm forced to use a days holiday for being off for a good reason. 😀

While ever you laugh it off they'll keep doing it.

I often do about an extra unpaid day a week. As of 1 November I'll be doing that for 10% less pay, and I've still got 24.5 days of leave to take by Christmas. Bugger.

Are you people mad? Why are you working and not getting paid for it?

I'm self employed, I can often be heard telling people that one of the perks is taking time off when I want, I don't have to ask, in reality it's meant that my holiday has gone from the usual 4/5 weeks down to about 10 days. I work quite hard to make sure I don't have to do more hours, but sometimes you can't help it.

For instance if your on a salary

Answered your own question:

Salaried = paid to do a job, whatever the hours

Waged = do the job, and paid for those hours.

(Me, salaried, usual week is around 50-60 hours, though nowehere near the regular 80+ hour weeks before the recession. Paid to do the job, not by the number of hours I spend at work/on STW 😉 )

What Stoner says…you'll find if you're on salary, you'll have signed a contract to say that you'll work the contracted (be it 37.5 or 40) hours per week but that as and when the business requires, you will work the extra hours.

Meaning, you'll rarely work less than 40 hours a week but you'll work more than that plenty of times. It's one of the reasons I left the corporate wporld and went self-employed. I don't "have" an hourly rate…I have a price-ish and some weeks I make lots of money an hour and some weeks I make ok money an hour.

I guess I have less time off but I enjoy my work a lot more and don't feel the need to be away from it as much. And funnily enough, during the summer I manage to finish most jobs by Thursday evening/Friday morning. 😀

My contract is for a set number of hours a week, but with a *minimum* number of holiday days. My actual hours are mine to choose as I like, providing deadlines are met. If I want to work an 80 hour week and then take a week off, I can. I suppose it depends on the nature of your work. I rarely count hours, I enjoy my work so I tend to get lost doing it and only look up at 8 or 9pm anyway.

Surely if you are not getting paid you are not actually working.
Companies can only do this with your consent.
Salaried does not mean they can make you work 80 hours a week your contract still has to specify your normal working hours which MUST be worked normally. Most business do this and they like your work ethic as it costs them nothing and allows your bosses /owners to make even MORE money. Who do you think is making the most from this arrangement?

I once went for a job interview where they told me(at the start of the interview) they paid me for 37 hours but expected 10 hours for nothing each week. I did not even get to the first question.

I did not even get to the first question.

I believe you man, but honestly now, how did you actually phrase the "getting up and walking out bit"? I only ask because I had something vaguely similar happen me once in a job interview.

Surely if you are not getting paid you are not actually working.
Companies can only do this with your consent.
Salaried does not mean they can make you work 80 hours a week your contract still has to specify your normal working hours which MUST be worked normally.

I think that's, er, poppycock.

I am paid to do a job. The inclusion of a set number of hours in my employment agreement is a nod to the legal requirement that this be spelled out. If my job requires a 100+ hour week – as has happenend many times, I do it. Why? If I don't, i lose my job. And there isn't exactly a ready market for people like me right now….

Further, I am required to opt out of the working time directive (48hr av week limit), and if i wish to opt back in have to give 3 months notice (meaning that if I resign and opt back in, only my last month of working is under 48hours).

There are plenty of times that doing 9-5 appeals, but I enjoy the – frankly not nearly enough – income I get and understand the price that goes with that.

Don't work anymore :-), but when I did, contracts (both as permie and contractor) invaraiably specified the number of hours with the proviso to work extra as needs dictated. Working on projects as opposed to supporting the business as usual side overtime was rare- good estimating sorted that out.
In the case where I did need to work overtime for extended periods, I almost invariably billed.
The 'professional day' is bs in my opinion, and often the indicator of a badly managed business, or part thereof.
Sure, there are times when it all goes tits up and work can't be avoided, but I'd expect that to be a rare rather than regular occurence. If the salaried staff can't be paid a reasonable amount per hour worked in a job paid by the day, year or whatever, then the business needs to take a good look at itself.

We have flexitime, its ace. The work gets done, you can naff off early if you've run out of stuff to do, and the business dosn't have to mess about budgeting the amount of overtime to pay people per quarter.

I work 13 HOURS a WEEK as a cleaner not a minute more !!!! 😯

If I worked a job that was just a job I'd probably stick to 9-5 like some of you guys. But my job is my hobby, I am just as happy doing it as doing my own hobbies at home. Only someone pays me for it. I work what and when I need to, some days I walk away after 4 hours and go for a ride. Though not nearly enough at the moment!

Used to have to do this a lot, and god those extra hours used to drag.

Local newspaper companies are the scum of the earth.

Now I'm my own boss I work way, way, WAY more hours, but never resent it really, for obvious reasons.

Boarding bob – you realise both you and your employer have broken the law by doing that. You are also storing up health problems for yourself.

Working unpaid overtime is foolish at best. It cannot be requirted saleried or waged. Saleried you still have a normal hours of work that is specified on your contract and any hours worked over that you are entitled to be paid for.

As for "if I didn't do it I would be sacked" – that would be wrongful dismissal.

You really are foolish sheep for doing this – and the only people that will profit are your companies while you are increawing your risks of major illhealth dramatically.

such sweet naivete TJ.
Its quite endearing.
Some people work in the hard cut and thrust of commerce where souls are cheap…and others work in the public sector. The world goes round.

stoner – what I posted is the truth. You and your employers are breaking the law and could be prosecuted. You cannot be sacked for refusing to break the law and you are being incredibly naive and stupid for working those stupidly long hours and risking your health.

No where else in Europe is this sort of thing tolerated.

I have worked in commercial companies as well as the public sector – and have run multimillion pound businesses.

not on a regular basis but occasionally I work unpaid overtime. I've got the opportunity to book it but don't bother half the time – I get paid enough for what I do as it is. It's pretty comfortable here, nobody moans at me for rolling in half hour late or for taking extended lunch hours when I need to so when I work overtime it pays that back. I got home from work at 22:30 last night but 1 1/2 hrs of that was in the pub eating on expenses and drinking cider. Give n take innit, I like my work 😀

K

While I understand what you say TJ, I can't really agree with you. I have friends who work probably twice as many hours as I do (ie. technically loads of 'unpaid' hours), but get paid twice as much.

That's just the norm in their industry and that's why they get paid so much. If they don't like it, they can leave and get a different job that doesn't expect as many hours (but no doubt pays less). Like I did 😀

My contract states a 37.5 hour week but I average over 50 hours per week – and that's just the time spent in the office.

I live close (less than 10 minutes) to work though, so despite spending more time in the office than anyone else in the company I actually also spend more time at home than a lot of them as well.

I can recall shooting stills for a production company some 15yrs ago..
The Assistant Director needed the Extras to work another 1-2hrs for nothing so he put it to them in a slaesman like way.
Most stayed.
The sparks etc all got over-time, the extras, being the bottom of the food chain were laughed at behind their backs as they worked for £0 for 2hrs.
The Assistand Director expected that they'd stay and thus saved the Production company some £ when it was his scheme all along.
He confided in me that they were complete idiots to stay. The ones who went hed had some respect for, the others, well, they were extras, so what did you reallistically expect?!

the only people that will profit are your companies

While this is correct, the career structure of people doing silly hours in banks, law firms, accountancy etc etc are typically doing so because they will be cut into the profits after a while if they work hard enough, at which point other drones will be working unpaid for their benefit. 🙂

Not me they have to pay me if I go over and if I go over by too many hours on a day can start late the next or take payment. We can also have the next day off it's over by 3 hours. TJ is right there is laws to this but too many people ignore them or scared by the 'cut and thrust' industry.

drac – you're a paramedic, not a trainee accountant. Its completely incomparable.

So when you are retired on illhealth after your stroke at 55 you really will be able to say " I am glad I spent the best years of my life working all the hours possible"

Significant health problems from excessive hours. Ever see your kids? Ever get to ride a bike?

You really are foolish sheep for doing this

You are right, of course, which is why I know very few people who like being lawyers, and none of those are transactional lawyers (what I do).

Trouble is, it takes people a minimum of 6 years to qualify, by which time many have incurred large educational debt and, at that point, think they need to give it a good crack. It's only after a few years of this – by which time so many have bought themselves a lifestyle/are still paying off their student debt – that they want to get out. However, the profession being what it is – one of risk identification and allocation – means that many lawyers can't see a way out. They are risk averse, and giving up what they know is a risk. So they plough on, hoping that the carrot of partnership and some decent money will come to fruition and justify the debt, long hours, huge stress and shear bloody boredom of the job.

There's also the concept of "failure" that so many high functioning individuals suffer – deciding that you can't hack a regular 60+ hour week (or spending 40 hours straight in the office without a break when trying to close a deal – I've done this more often than is healthy and many consider it a badge of honour) feels like a complete let down of all that effort from such a young age.

Remember that law firms recruit on the basis that those trainees who are taken on are the "brightest and the best" and they they will intellectual challenegs and stimulation – that's a lot to live up to. And, so anyone who does leave the law is openly referred to as not having been able to hack it – if only because those who are left behind are too scared to admit their own "weaknesses".

I'm hatching a plan to escape the law, by a transition away from it. But it isn't easy accepting that the thing that you spent so much time and effort getting into isn't what you thought it would be, and isn't what you want to do.

One of the truest things I ever read about work is that often success at work is defined by people who are workaholics.