/Van-driver-s-lapse-led-rider-s-death/

Its certainly a confusing junction but that hardly excuses killing someone. 200hrs community service, 2 year ban and £350 costs seems very light even to a bleeding heart liberal like me.

The judge told him: “There is no evidence of excessive speed or of aggressive or impaired driving.

RIP. Google imaged the underpass- it does look scary to me.

The judge told him: “Apart from you not noticing and, by that failure, killing another road user there is no evidence of … impaired driving. Well done, sir !”

It was an accident, the driver wasn’t driving recklessly and there was no malice aforethought, he made an error of judgement on a difficult junction which sadly led to the death of a cyclist, he has been punished quite severely under driving laws, what else would you suggest, prison? That would be a waste of tax payers money.

The driver will have this on his conscience for the rest of his life, that is quite a hefty punishment in itself.

It does seem light, but I’m quite sure he didn’t set off to kill somebody that day.

It’s hard to get the details of the case but if he was was fully legal and made a tragic but honest mistake his own demons may be punnishing him more than any prison sentence would or could achieve.

Agree with Kingtut. If in summing up the Judge said “There is no evidence of excessive speed or of aggressive or impaired driving” why the relatively harsh sentence?

Kingtut – I’d take the bloke’s licence permanently

If there was no reason (speed, aggression, tiredness, drugs) why he missed a 5 second opportunity to notice another (vulnerable) road user, then he’s not suitable driver material

He’d have got 7 years if it was ‘death by dangerous driving’. We’ve got a bloke in our nick who got 7 years, he was driving a low loader with a crane or something on & (i think) something came loose, wolloped a car killing the occupant. No speeding, no drink or drugs, no malice, unintentional etc etc.

“The case involves a vulnerable road user and motorists have an obligation to take particular care to look for cyclists and motorcyclists.”…..

He said before the crash he had been either driving or working for the past 13 hours, but he was not tired or distracted and had thought the road was clear. The court heard he had a conviction for speeding in 2006, and a conviction for driving while using a mobile phone in 2008….

Jennifer Tallentire, defending, said Stallard was familiar with the junction and prosecution evidence suggested there would have been up to five seconds when he should have seen Dr Morris.

Sometime we need to look at the consequnces as well as the intent. Clearly he is guilty of a very poor error of judgement and someone is dead …casuing death by careless driving should be a mandatory porison sentence IMHO

scaredypants not all people who immediate jump back behind a wheel after the sentance has expired. I don’t think I’d have the confidence to drive again personally.

esselgruntfuttock, ****. Everyone looses out in that situation 🙁

We’ve got a bloke in our nick who got 7 years, he was driving a low loader with a crane or something on & (i think) something came loose, wolloped a car killing the occupant.

LGV drivers must ensure is that the vehicle they are about to drive is road worthy and the the load is secure, the police and VOSA throw the book at drivers that fail to do this, although a 7 year sentence suggests the driver may have has previous.

I’d take the bloke’s licence permanently

If there was no reason (speed, aggression, tiredness, drugs) why he missed a 5 second opportunity to notice another (vulnerable) road user, then he’s not suitable driver material

no doubt you never bollox anything up then?

hora – I don’t want shit drivers on the road at all, thanks. The case (his own defence, presumably) has established that he’s a shit, unobservant driver also with a history of speeding and using his phone. Doesn’t deserve another opportunity IMO

The court heard he had a conviction for speeding in 2006, and a conviction for driving while using a mobile phone in 2008

How many STW’ers have a speeding conviction in the past 4yrs? True on the mobile phone but there is no mention of someone on the edge of criminality is there?

nonk – course I do, but if I’d proven to myself that I wasn’t capable of operating dangerous machinery safely I’d never use it again. Wouldn’t need a court to tell me.

It’s only a driving licence, not oxygen

Sorry Mate, I Didn’t See You is now a valid defence?

Cant help but think the cyclist made a mistake here too.

miketually – Member

Sorry Mate, I Didn’t See You is now a valid defence?

Define valid? Any excuse can be used as a defence, whether it’s successful or not is another matter. If you are implying that it’s the drivers excuse in this case then no it wasn’t valid, therefore he was convicted of death by careless driving.

Surrounded By Zulus – Member
Cant help but think the cyclist made a mistake here too.

Yes you do have a penchant for opinions with NO basis in fact.
He rode up to a junction a van pulled out and hit him. Do eleaborate on why based on your gazillion miles driving and cycling what he did wrong ?

It’s unlikely the cyclist could have been doing anything wrong he would have been on a stretch of straight road, it really is an awful, poorly conceived junction.

People regularly cycle up and down here (its a 40 and you can) however there is **** all chance you’d EVER catch me riding up or down it:

(Click on streetview)
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=bridgewater+way+trafford&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Bridgewater+Way,+Trafford+M16+9&gl=uk&ei=Fbe-TPRs3pTiBpnPtJMB&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQ8gEwAA

I always wonder in these cases, when someone springs to the defence of relatively soft sentence using the argument that “they’ll have it on thier conscience for the rest of thier lives” whether this is really true.

There’s that TV ad of the motorist seeing the dead boy he’d killed in assorted places (park, office, etc…) and I’m not convinced this is the case for lots of people. I think there may well be quite a strong argument for people being able to self-justify their actions after the event to direct blame/guilt away from themselves on to someone/something else (road conditions, poor junction design, the victim). Probably as a way to cope, but not necessarily meaning that they change their behaviour to prevent it happening again.

I’ve been on other fora where people have admitted to, and sometimes served time for offences and while there is remorse, there is also times when I think “actually, that seems to be exactly the way you thought before, which led to these circumstances occuring, whats preventing the event occuring all over again?”

Anyways, just my opinion.

Of course most people adjust it’s the same with all bad things in our lives, if we didn’t adjust we would end up posting on the numerous depression threads that crop up on this form (:wink:), people may adjust and even return to their old ways, but it would take a very hardened person block out a death on their conscience.

That’s not to say it doesn’t happen of course.

People regularly cycle up and down here (its a 40 and you can) however there is **** all chance you’d EVER catch me riding up or down it:

(Click on streetview)
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=bridgewater+way+trafford&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Bridgewater+Way,+Trafford+M16+9&gl=uk&ei=Fbe-TPRs3pTiBpnPtJMB&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQ8gEwAA

I used to cycle down that road every single day but then I learned to drive and realised that doing 40 down that stretch of road is just not done and everybody treats it is a minor motorway so now when I’m going that way I take Talbot Road (which I work on anyway)

How many STW’ers have a speeding conviction in the past 4yrs? True on the mobile phone but there is no mention of someone on the edge of criminality is there?

Speeding – not that fussed. I think it’s perfectly possible to speed safely (but is against the law and I’d not moan if I got done – have been once)
Phone – marks you out as a cock who doesn’t give a shit about paying attention on the road in general.
Failing to see someone due to careless driving (as convicted) – You need to stop driving (esp given the ‘phone thing above)

There’s several roads near me that I’d not cycle along (plus one of the most idiotic cycle paths I’ve seen). Shouldn’t be like that, but it is. I wouldn’t deem a cyclist responsible for their own injury on the roads just for trying it though – the reason it’s dangerous is because of the way drivers behave on those roads.

JonR, yes the majority drive at circa 60mph with some doing in excess 70-80mph.

Coming the other way is that long sweeping blind corner. **** that.

If it was strictly 40. I’d consider riding down it. I still wouldn’t ride up it the other way due to that sweeping corner that leads upto VW.

but it would take a very hardened person block out a death on their conscience.

Possibly, but it could also be argued that it would take a very strong person to accept it and learn to live with it, rather than taking the easier option of denying it and laying the blame elsewhere.

Sorry KT, not having a go at you, just whenever these threads crop up it unnerves me how often this “punishment” is used as a justification for soft sentencing.

Bad road, complacent “professional” driver.. and rotten bloody luck for the cyclist.

If he wasn’t wearing a helmet he’d probably have survived.

Are all STW readers perfect drivers? Can anyone who’s driven say 200,000 miles (as the defendant here had done) honestly say they’ve NEVER made an error which in different circumstances could have had tragic consequences? If everyone who ever pulls out of a junction without looking properly got a ban the roads would be very quiet. Unfortunately in this instance it resulted in the tragic loss of life. Would it help the victim if he got a prison sentence or life driving ban? no. Would it make you or me likely to pay more attention on our drive home tonight? no – most people aren’t intentionally reckless.

Speculating on what the cyclist might or might not have done “wrong” probably seems unhelpful – but its the one thing that those of us who commute can influence – OUR riding behaviour. Maximise our visibility to drivers; if there is a 5 second window for the driver to see us – there is also a 5 second window for us to give them a wide berth or slow down if they don’t seem to have etc. Before anyone starts jumping up and down I’m not implying in any way that this was the cyclists fault – and he may well have already taken every precaution – speculating over historical events isn’t going to help anyone but rather than looking to hang every driver who makes a mistake we need to look at how we can reduce the impact of those mistakes.

I’d be inclined to argue that the more a person drives.. i.e. the more miles per day etc the more desensitized to speed they become, and also the danger of the task.
And they pay less attention..
Be honest those of you who do drive fairly frequently.. do you really check your blind spot every time? your mirrors when it’s advisable to be doing so?
Course you bloody don’t. Everyone is complacent.

If everyone who ever pulls out of a junction without looking properly got a ban the roads would be very quiet.

Well, only everyone who is convicted by a court of careless driving – sadly, that tends only to be investigated after a fatality. If it became very widely enforced (clearly not feasible) and public knowledge that not looking and concentrating could lose you your licence, I suspect there’d be less of it rather than very quiet roads.

If everyone who ever pulls out of a junction without looking properly got a ban the roads would be very quiet.

I could live with that.

Sorry KT, not having a go at you, just whenever these threads crop up it unnerves me how often this “punishment” is used as a justification for soft sentencing.

I know you’re not and I do see your point.

“coming out of nowhere” is against the law in America.

Yes you do have a penchant for opinions with NO basis in fact.
He rode up to a junction a van pulled out and hit him. Do eleaborate on why based on your gazillion miles driving and cycling what he did wrong ?

If the van driver had 5 seconds where he could have seen the cyclist then the cyclist had a similar amount of time in which to see that the van driver and take evasive action.

If the van driver had 5 seconds where he could have seen the cyclist then the cyclist had a similar amount of time in which to see that the van driver and take evasive action.

As I understand it, the van pulled out of a side road and then clipped the cyclist as he overtook him. How, exactly, could the cyclist have taken evasive action against that?

smee,

just in case you’re ever hit by a car coming from behind, care to put into writing now what you did wrong ?

I had a work colleague who about 20 years ago had a child run out in the road in front of him, he was unable to stop in time and the child died from the resulting injuries. He has never been able to drive since, and is a nightmare as a passenger. The incident clearly hangs very heavy on him.