The disaster which struck Japan on all the different levels has been fascinating to see unfold with the availability of video footage and near instant updates on the situation.

The current state of the nuclear reactors and the potential meltdown has had me checking for updates on far too regular a basis. It’s not so much the ‘oh my god it’s going to blow up’ factor, but the ability to witness something only read about in text books and discussed by many over the disadvantage of nuclear power is truly fascinating.

Has anybody read anything on post melt down clean up? WOuld the area be left alone and the rebuild of Japan focused else where or would the radiation zone become the key focus away from the rebuild?

When Chernobyl melted down, it was from what I know, pretty much kept underwraps as long as possible, then all handled by the Russians to minimise outside influence.

Is Japan in a position to do this and if they aren’t who would go and clean it up? What sort of person would go and clean up a potentially fatal radioactive fallout from another country?

Some of my students at school in year 11 have spent their free time (first for me and not even top set) trying to compare nuclear disasters and work out for themselves what is really happening in Japan, in particular how the meltdown would affect Tokyo.

note: I know that the humanitarian side of STW will be along in a minute to chastise me for being insensitive, but putting the whole humanitarian issues aside. The ability to catalogue a disaster on this scale is amazing.

How long will Japan stay in the spotlight as well? Haiti dropped out pretty quickly.

Haiti dropped out pretty quickly.

Haiti was not the worlds third largest economy. I think Japan will be topical for a while.

I think Japan will be topical for a while.

Would they be involved in much media manipulation to paint a rosier picture?

The Grauniad certainly seems to be revelling in it all a little too much.

Your questions are definitely interesting though imo. There is a British nuclear expert suggesting even the worst case scenario is unlikely to be ‘another Chernobyl’ btw.

I’m a systems engineer. I did some research on three mile island as a uni project. Have always been interested in the energy supply problem. It’s fascinating and horrifying. God help them.

It’s not the same type of problem as Chernobyl. That exploded the uncontained reactor when a badly run commissioning test made it go super critical. The reactors in japan are fully inhibited but still hot. The worry here is that without pumped coolant a full core meltdown is possible that could lead to china syndrome although there are also design measures to prevent it.

But I just read that reactor 4s cool down pool may have evaporated away. That might result in a very large release if it isn’t dealt with. It’s been suggested that it might re react but I can’t believe that.

^ I read a few ‘experts’ opionions on the reactors. Chernobyl was carbon rods catching fire, this would be the concrete, Chernobyl vented directly to the outside with no protection, this one alegedly has protection, although I thought it had been damaged significantly with an explosion.

It’s fascinating and horrifying. God help them.

Much how I see it.

A thought might be that youtube and the ability to watch others mishaps so easily has desensitized people to what it really is like there.

Compared to the deaths and devastation caused by the tsunami the reactor problems are utterly insignificant. I doubt that’ll add a fraction of a percent to the impact.

Water just doesn’t sound scary.

From a very old Horizon program I remember this:

Underneath the reactor at Chernobyl there is a feature called “The Elephant’s foot”. It is as far down as the molten core material went during the accident. When it was found they wanted to know what it was composed of. The radiation was so bad it killed robots so they sent a marksman and from a “safe” distance he shot off a small chunk that was then retrieved with a childs remote control car.

Turned out it was scarily HOT core material and fuel all molten together.

If you can track it down its well worth a watch.

Also try and get hold of New Scientist 21st Aug 2004, they interview one of the technicians onsite at the time it went bang………..chilling.

When Chernobyl melted down, it was from what I know, pretty much kept underwraps as long as possible

On the contrary, Gorbachev was praised for the Soviet Union’s unprecedented openness when the Chernobyl disaster occurred. I don’t know how warranted that was though, in the same way that I can’t be sure how honest and open the Japanese authorities are being at the moment. The nuclear industry in all countries tends to be very secretive and less than honest. The first nuclear disaster in the world occurred in Britain, and yet the British government didn’t officially admit to it until about 30 years afterwards. It still isn’t talked about very much.

Compared to the deaths and devastation caused by the tsunami the reactor problems are utterly insignificant

At this moment in time.

If the reactor does go and contaminates the local area and surrounding areas it will be a different story. It has the potential to effect 1000’s again and make areas inhabitable.

I’m sure it was Japan that had a boat at sea for years carrying nuclear waste that an African country became wise to and refused to land it. Circa ate 80’s i’m sure.

There are very clear explanations of windscale three mile island and Chernobyl accidents on wikipedia. They were secretive about windscale because the reactor was part of our nuclear weapons Making programme not a power station at all.

On the contrary, Gorbachev was praised for the Soviet Union’s unprecedented openness when the Chernobyl disaster occurred

The initial evidence that a major release of radioactive material was affecting other countries came not from Soviet sources, but from Sweden, where on the morning of 28 April[55] workers at the Forsmark Nuclear Power Plant (approximately 1,100 km (680 mi) from the Chernobyl site) were found to have radioactive particles on their clothes.[56] It was Sweden’s search for the source of radioactivity, after they had determined there was no leak at the Swedish plant, that at noon on April 28 led to the first hint of a serious nuclear problem in the western Soviet Union. Hence the evacuation of Pripyat on April 27, 36 hours after the initial explosions, was silently completed before the disaster became known outside the Soviet Union. The rise in radiation levels had at that time already been measured in Finland, but a civil service strike delayed the response and publication.[57]

It’s from Wiki, but that is pretty much what I had read about in a book on Chernobyl. They hadn’t told anybody it had happened for two days

edit – I’m sure I watched a horizon or something along those lines with an offical person of some sort talking about asking the Russians what was happening and getting denial to start with, evenutally followed by acceptance that there had been an accident.

At this moment in time.

Or at any time. Towns will not be erased. 10s of thousands will not die in minutes. Hundreds of thousands more people will not be made homeless. A few people might die a bit early. Maybe.

buzz-lightyear – Member
I’m a systems engineer. I did some research on three mile island as a uni project. Have always been interested in the energy supply problem

Loughborough?

Or at any time. Towns will not be erased. 10s of thousands will not die in minutes. Hundreds of thousands more people will not be made homeless. A few people might die a bit early. Maybe.

But at the end of the day, I’d be more inclined to live on the coast than next to a rotting nuclear power station.

Well, if you lived on the coast (near those power stations) you stood more chance of getting killed by water than radiation. Several thousand times more.

Only with in the time scale of the last week though.

They hadn’t told anybody it had happened for two days

Yep, the Soviet Union admitting 2 days after Chernobyl that a had disaster occurred, was unprecedented openness.

“the Windscale fire of October 1957. The reactor’s core, made of graphite, caught light, melted and burned substantial amounts of the uranium fuel, and released large amounts of radioactivity. It was the most serious nuclear calamity until Chernobyl nearly 30 years later, but the British government did all it could to minimise its significance, trying at first to keep it a complete secret (the local fire brigade was not notified for 24 hours) and keeping the official report confidential until 1988”

Only with in the time scale of the last week though.

You do realise that the reactors going bang was because of the tsunami, don’t you? It’s not a tragic coincidence.

If the reactors had gone bang all by themselves it would be (in normal terms) serious. As it it’s just a tiny part of a truly huge disaster. Unfortunately it’s taking the focus off the real tragedy.

even when thay have blown up and are on fire people go on about how safe they are. What would it take to convince you they are not that safe?

Nah Portsmouth . Not brainy enough for Loughborough

Just to add to this :

Yep, the Soviet Union admitting 2 days after Chernobyl that a had disaster occurred, was unprecedented openness.

……just in case anyone thinks Japan’s nuclear industry is usually very open, they’re not. It has a long history of cover-ups and lies, which have involved senior executives and a chairman being forced to resign. Just one example :

Outrage over Japan nuclear reactor coverup

there was a program about windscale on TV a while back, i found it a compelling but chilling story.
a friend of the family wrote a book called ‘maximum credible accident’ about a nuclear disaster in the u.k. will see if i can get hold of a copy.

Compared to the deaths and devastation caused by the tsunami the reactor problems are utterly insignificant. I doubt that’ll add a fraction of a percent to the impact

How dare you trivialise the problem at the reactor. Don’t you realise that your remarks could upset people who are already worried?

Well, if you lived on the coast (near those power stations) you stood more chance of getting killed by water than radiation. Several thousand times more

Only with in the time scale of the last week though.

Within any timescale you care to pick, apart from if you move there right now – you’d better hurry though, your window of increased risk from radiation is pretty small.

Yes that appears to be the line that The Resister is now pushing aracer :

“Nonetheless its human consequences seem certain to remain insignificant against the horrifying backdrop of the earthquake tragedy elsewhere in Japan”

IE, Fukushima has gone tits up, but it won’t kill 10,000 + like the earthquake/Tsunami.

So the human consequences “seem certain” to remain insignificant, which is nice to know. Although only 2 days ago The Resister seemed certain that “Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power” and claimed that “Japan’s nuclear powerplants have performed magnificently”

Today however, The Resister is claiming that Fukushima is “definitely the second worst nuclear accident yet seen” ….and yes that’s “definite” btw.

Still, as long as they seem certain that everything is definite, then I guess that’s alright.

CUrrent headline for the Telegraph is New Chernobyl 48 hours away

Reading between the lines though, they mention the relief efforts to stricken parts not getting there and peple enduring freezing weather.

Is it at all possible the reactors are being used to draw our attention away from the fact that they aren’t managing to cope with the rescue/clean up and are in fact in a lot more of a disaster situation than is being let on.

but the government raised the maximum allowable radiation exposure for workers from 100 millisieverts per year to 250, which it said was “unavoidable due to the circumstances”

THat I find a fascinitating statement.

All 3 events in Japan are horrific each and of themselves. The humanitarian issues dealing with the refugees is enormous and have, outside Japan, become less newsworthy than the ongoing saga with 4 ageing US designed nuclear reactors which through whatever process are now in a state of near catastrophic failure.
It would be interesting (as an exercise) to consider how the UK would be able to react to a similar group of calamities. I would think that your students might be quite surprised, and I rather suspect not in a good way.

It might also be worth working out the probability, given plate movements, of the UK finding itself in an active earthquake zone when a one-in-one-thousand year quake hits.

Today however, The Resister is claiming that Fukushima is “definitely the second worst nuclear accident yet seen” ….and yes that’s “definite” btw

Did you read the rest of the article or just the headline?
Rest here

4 ageing US designed nuclear reactors

Again, does the STW world consider it possible that there are fossil fuel interests steering these news stories or should I put my tin foil hat away?

A morbid interest in the meltdown

The media are desperately praying for a meltdown or at least a few more dramatic hydrogen explosions. As it is they’re restricted to showing the same three bangs over and over while conjecturing wildly about what “might” happen, quite entertaining given that half of them can’t even pronounce the word “nuclear” never mind understand anything about nuclear power.

No, it’s not the same as a bomb, it’s nothing like Chernobyl, get over yourselves.

it’s ramifications for the nuclear power industry as a whole, worldwide, are likely to be felt for a long time.

Nuclear power is one of the few viable alternatives to fossil fuel in my book and this will set the cause back a long way. The americans are already getting jittery.

Nuclear power is one of the few viable alternatives to fossil fuel in my book and this will set the cause back a long way.

+1 Lessons can be learnt but rational must be maintained, the causes of what’s occurring in Japan are fairly unlikely in the UK and most or Europe!

I must say the reporting of this in the media has been pretty shocking, last night Newsnight confused fission with fusion, and then had a round table discussion with a Japanese concert pianist and a actress who’d once played a survivor of Nagasaki. I mean, WTF?!

The only competent ‘expert’ I’ve seen so far was on the Today program this morning, he raised the question of why they were dumping water from the air – not going to cool the core as the containment vessel is in the way, could be cooling the containment vessel (but why would you want to particularly), and it’s a rubbish way to fill up the cool pond. He also pointed out that the radiation released thus far has been largely assoicated with the short term isotopes in the steam

CUrrent headline for the Telegraph is New Chernobyl 48 hours away

Another newspaper I need to avoid as it over sensationalises stuff then.

Did you read the rest of the article or just the headline?

Oh I’m sure he read the rest. It just didn’t provide the sort of quotes he was after.

“The americans are already getting jittery.” errr yep. Apparently in my wifes home town of Austin, pharmacies are experiencing a run on Iodine tablets!! Yes it’s serious in Japan but I don’t think Texas needs to worry quite yet.

Whilst this may set back civilian nuclear projects, it may force additional research and funding into other non fossil fuel based energy projects which may be no bad thing.

1 Lessons can be learnt but rational must be maintained, the causes of what’s occurring in Japan are fairly unlikely in the UK and most or Europe!

so the volcanic balearic islands and iceland are no threat then?
there was a program on the telly a few years ago about a volcano on the balearics that was possibly going to slide into the sea and cause a tsunami.

I’m a process engineer with a specialisation in safety and loss prevention, so i’m finding this both interesting and disturbing in equal measure. I’d look forward to reading the ‘what went wrong’ report in a couple of years, if I didn’t think that the japanese nuclear industry are going to whitewash it 🙁